Something big is happening in Tehran
- Thread starter Teepee
- Start date
JHE
.
Well, that will be it, then. It isn't really that Iranians have disagreements about the regime they live under and one large bunch of them believe the recent election was massively rigged.
Nope. It's the Yanks.
Hokay. I'll give it to some cat thing probably.
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
this is quite interesting
http://kojayi.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/ayatollah-montazeris-letter/
it's a translation of a letter to the Iranian people by Ayatollah Montazeris - but he's been 'dispute' with Ahmadinejad since at least 2007
http://kojayi.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/ayatollah-montazeris-letter/
it's a translation of a letter to the Iranian people by Ayatollah Montazeris - but he's been 'dispute' with Ahmadinejad since at least 2007
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Well, it seems to me misleading to argue as though the two possibilities are mutually exclusive. We have the normally reliable Seymour Hersh's story from last year telling us that the US set aside something on the order of half a billion dollars for destabilising the Iranian government. Taking that account seriously doesn't preclude the possibility that there were also genuine issues behind the current wave of protests.
Indeed, any intelligent attempt to destabilise the clerical regime would be rather foolish if it didn't seek to leverage such issues.
For example, see how US government money was applied (one imagines this would have to be rather more clandestine in Iran, but the principles seem just as applicable to the present case) to assist in the overthrow of Milosevic
It also appears that very similar methods, i.e. adding massive funding and professional assistance to genuine dissent after disputed elections, were successfully applied in the Ukraine and Georgia. So why wouldn't they try for a re-run?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I think the next couple of days will be crucial as to whether this turns out to be a Romania (successfull revolution) or a Burma (need I say more).
If the protests are not joined by workers' strikes (one report somehwere - I forget where - did mention rumours of a general strike) and rank-and-file soldiers' mutinies very quickly, this regime could well reassert power in the same way as the Burmese and Zimbabwean regimes have done in similar circumstances.
And those who insist the election "win" for Ahmadinijad should understand that in Iranian elections the voters have to vote in front of state officials no polling booths). That's before you take into account that only state-apporved candidates can even stand for eelction in the first place. They're little better than the farcical elections that were held in the communist bloc.
Neither Neo-cons nor the Theocratic far-right!
If the protests are not joined by workers' strikes (one report somehwere - I forget where - did mention rumours of a general strike) and rank-and-file soldiers' mutinies very quickly, this regime could well reassert power in the same way as the Burmese and Zimbabwean regimes have done in similar circumstances.
And those who insist the election "win" for Ahmadinijad should understand that in Iranian elections the voters have to vote in front of state officials no polling booths). That's before you take into account that only state-apporved candidates can even stand for eelction in the first place. They're little better than the farcical elections that were held in the communist bloc.
Neither Neo-cons nor the Theocratic far-right!
I read somewhere that Iran's nuclear programme is dispersed over so many sites which are so deeply buried that even a huge shock and awe job by the Americans could only delay it by a few months, and the Israelis on their own could barely make a scratch. So it's too late for bombing. The only way to stop it becoming a nuclear power is to invade.
e2a: or to nuke it.
e2a: or to nuke it.
My guess is that whoever the anonymous writer of the article you read is, was looking for a reason to justify an invasion. If I was the Iranian president I would want to press ahead and get a nuclear weapon capability as soon as possible so as to be able to warn Israel and America that an attack would have devastating consequences to them.
I think the reason that Iran is pushing nuclear research is mainly so that they can provide themselves with electricity without using up their own oil which is the main source of international money for them. The weapons-grade plutonium that will be a by-product is just a bonus, but if Iran continues to be threatened you can understand them working on the making of a nuclear weapon.
mitochondria
full-on emptiness
thepiratebay.org - thepersianbay / Iran vbulletin
we are the internetz
we are the internetz
Or to overthrow the democratically elected government and replace it with people who are either bought already, likely to prove amenable to being bought, or at least less ideologically aggressive than Ahmadinejad.
Well, i really thought you'd thrown in a couple of 'must's...
You may have missed my question to phildwyer regarding reasons behind what's going on in iran, that i'm not really sure, and would like to know more, and, unstated, that i usually have problems turning to mainstream US or UK media for answers.
So, that means i'm not sure, but suspect the hand of the US to be involved.
And, I have not said i don't accept that the 'disgusting islamist' regime has caused all of this upon itself. Please stop putting ideas into my mouth!
I would also question your description of the leadership running iran. I'm not sure it really has much to do with islam itself, rather the cliques of power that choose to subvert the main message of islam for their own political purposes.
Now, back to my original suspicion which you appear to have not liked, the US have been involved in fomenting unrest in various countries since the ww2, and in various ways. Due to the frequency of this behavioural trait of theirs, i believe i'm on pretty safe ground in suspecting them. But my suspicion is not enough, hence my question to phil, or anyone else.
Steady on old chap!
[ps, i should add that it seems unarguable that the disgusting regime you talk of is headed by a man that a majority of iranian people actually like!]
You should read up on their modus operandi jhe, listen to the economic hitmen. Whether the yanks are involved or not (and personally i'd guess it's much more than a 50% chance), what's happening in iran now has happened several times before where the yanks have been shown to be sowing disunity and discord. In case you'd forgotten, powerful people can only remain powerful when us peoples are divided.
Of course many iranians have disagreements about their regime, i believe the same could be said of british and american people. So why, after an election that even the washington post seems to accept was a true one, are there all these demonstrations? Can they not accept the democratic vote they had?
Funny all this, when thaksin (overwhelmingly returned by the people to office just like this ahmadinajad man) was ousted in a coup in thailand a couple of years back, the combined might of the US and UK said it was an attack on democracy. By the same yardstick, they should be coming out and defending the result of the iranian election and that democratically they have voted in ahmadinajad.
What is undeniable is that the US, and usually the UK too, are always interfering with other nations and who they have in power, and elect into power and out of power. I think the idea that the US have not been involved in the background very difficult to accept. It's quite simply what empires do.
Kid_Eternity
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
What's people's thoughts on Amarwhatshisface popping over to Russia? Couldn't help but laugh at the idea he think he's gonna be overthrown is looking for a place to live in exile...
The questıon ıs not whether they're ınvolved or not--of course they are. The questıon ıs how effectıve that ınvolvement ıs.
Personally I thınk that after 30 years of vıgılant Islamıc theocracy, the USA's abılıty to do much on the ground ıs probably quıte lımıted. But I've no doubt that they have agents who are hıghly placed on every sıde, and ın partıcular among the opposıtıon. They'd be fools not to, and they're not fools.
More ınterestıng than that ıs what he saıd ın Russıa. That wıll gıve you a good ıdea why the West has decıded he has to go now.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Interesting article here on the various factional interests at the heart of a lot of this.
http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/16/the-leaders-of-iran’s-election-coup/
http://tehranbureau.com/2009/06/16/the-leaders-of-iran’s-election-coup/
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
fela, just because someone has a record of 'previous' as long as Michael jordan's arm, it doesn't automatically follow that every political flashpoint around the globe must be perforce down to them. without any evidence, this is all conspiraloon central.
I know most of you won't be able to see news coverage from Iran's point of view so I'll tell you what was on Press TV this morning.
The coverage was of a well attended but totally peaceful protest with lots of smiling people. The leaders of the protests are quoted as asking for peaceful protest. The total was about 20 seconds.
Other news stations including Al Jazeera have been kicked out of the country but no one on Press TV bothered to mention that.
Al Jazeera is showing youtube and quoting twitters with stories of violence.
I still have no clue as to the validity of the election results but the Iranian government is acting like they have something to hide.
Due to being busy looking after Michelle and trying to sort out things for this morning, I have yet to see the news from Russia and their take on the matter.
The coverage was of a well attended but totally peaceful protest with lots of smiling people. The leaders of the protests are quoted as asking for peaceful protest. The total was about 20 seconds.
Other news stations including Al Jazeera have been kicked out of the country but no one on Press TV bothered to mention that.
Al Jazeera is showing youtube and quoting twitters with stories of violence.
I still have no clue as to the validity of the election results but the Iranian government is acting like they have something to hide.
Due to being busy looking after Michelle and trying to sort out things for this morning, I have yet to see the news from Russia and their take on the matter.
Well, i've not said it automatically follows have i?! I've informed the thread of my suspicion that they are involved. And i greatly suspect they are, but since i have no evidence to hand, i cannot categorically say they are behind all of this.
But by the same token, to counter what you then say, because history shows us (through, in fact, evidence) that something has occurred many times, i hardly think you can refer a belief that history is being repeated into the 'conspiraloon central' department.
Now mate, if you've not heard of 'blowback' (for just one example) now might be a good time to get the book called by this (CIA) term, or at least see what the internet offers on the topic. Furthermore, it would be more than reasonable to suggest that the US are currently in stage 2 of their three stage procedure for subverting governments or leaders in other countries who are running their nations along a line counter to american business/imperial objectives. This time it's iran. Not so long ago it was iraq and afghanistan. And not so long before that it was parts of eastern europe, and not so long before that it was south and central american nations, and not so long before that it was se asian countries...
To think that this current empire have decided to suddenly change their attitudes and behaviour over iran is difficult to accept, especially considering it's IRAN, and comes nowhere near the dimension of being conspiracy theory.
In fact, perhaps it just goes to show how successful that term has become for those in power who are always conspiring to remain in power, so that they can continue to abuse that power...
[ps, their record of previous is more like a country mile and makes jordon's arm look like the length of a gnat.]
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
Of course i've heard of blowback! I agree entirely that past US behaviour should always make one suspicious of them, however what seems likely, given that this is one of the brighter and better-informed presidential administrations, that they are aware that any interference by them will almost certainly have the opposite effect to what they intend, given how hated the US is as far as ordinary Iranians are concerned.
In other words, they still want the same end, but have acquired subtlety and restraint - they're playing the long game.
In other words, they still want the same end, but have acquired subtlety and restraint - they're playing the long game.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Still be interesting to know what they spent that 400m dollar 'destabilising the clerical regime' budget on though wouldn't it?
Well, it could easily be that you're correct over obama's regime not overtly interfering with iran's political process, but then not much of their interventions before have been overt at the time, and indeed, even now they remain unknown by a huge majority of US nationals.
I still say that covertly the US are more than complicit in what's going on today. And it really doesn't seem to matter which party are in in the US, it's all the string pullers that cut across party lines that control the levers of empire.
Maybe a couple of CIA operatives did a runner with the cash...
ohmyliver
poppin' like a cork
http://loopyblog.free.fr/?p=700
they think it's a russian backed coup
"MAKHMALBAF: AHMADI’S RUSSIAN-BACK COUP D’ETAT!!!
I just listened to Mohsen Makhmalbaf, who’s been speakign – officially according to him – on behalf of Moussavi’s camp outside of the country.
He was just on BBC Persian, and he basically said that Ahmadinejad was in Russia, in order to ensure their backing against this uprising in exchange for caspian sea territory and other things."
But perhaps the overuse of the exclamation mark denotes a certain detachment from reality.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
For those who've read this - Yazdi last night issued a statement very late last night puroporting to be from the Assembly of Experts (the body which has the immediate power to censure or even remove Khameni) saying that the election was fine and the protests must now stop (something which they have no legal jurisdiction over, or even the right to comment on as a body). Thing is, Yazdi is only the deputy leader of the AoE, Rafsanjani (currently the main internal supporter of Mousavi - even if only to fuck Khameni up the arse) and it was issued only in Yazdi's name, his was the single signature - so nothing really to do with the AoE. This suggests, an element of panic from the really hard hardliners, possibly unable to get the AoE to publically fall in line with the regime, and that Rafsanjani is still hoping to bring down Khameni. They're all playing very risky games it seems.
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