Somerleyton Road: one of London's dodgiest streets?

[Mrs Magpie]

I'm often out after midnight...came through there with my husband after midnight on saturday after having a meal with friends in the next street. One of those very same friends used it late on sunday night too after leaving my place.

 

[editor]

I'm often out after midnight...came through there with my husband after midnight on saturday after having a meal with friends in the next street.
.

Yes, but just because you've been all right (so far) that doesn't stop it being a very dangerous street. I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to these things, but I won't walk down there after 1am. - it's just not worth the risk.

The bloke me and Eme met on Saturday was a big strapping geezer and even he won't go there any more at night, and I've heard many, many stories about people getting mugged/threatened there. Next time I see you, I'll tell you a few of them and you might be surprised.

And, of course, there's been at least two murders on that corner in the last five years. I don't think it's getting any better - in fact I think it got worse when they pushed the dealers out of central Brixton.

 

[Star Dove]

I think it got worse when they pushed the dealers out of central Brixton.

That sounds right to me.

Without some radical change in drug policy all that happens is things get moved. If Somerleyton gets sorted out it'll just move somewhere else. Probably just a bit up CHL.

 

[story]

I too know people who've had trouble in that underpass - big burly blokes included. I won't walk through there after midnight on me own.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I've never had hassle on the underpass in 26 years of using it apart from mopeds whizzing through but's that been sorted recently. I've had hassle at the CHL end of Somerleyton.

 

[story]

I've never had hassle on the underpass in 26 years of using it apart from mopeds whizzing through but's that been sorted recently. I've had hassle at the CHL end of Somerleyton.

Maybe cos you're known and respected round your way?

This is not as fanciful as it sounds - I know of at least one person who was confronted by a gang in the underpass, and when they saw who it was, they left well enough alone. The thing was that the person in question had no notion that they were recognised and respected, except that they overheard one of them saying "Oh it's ------, leave it."

 

[detective-boy]

If Somerleyton gets sorted out it'll just move somewhere else. Probably just a bit up CHL.

Which is why policing alone will never sort out crime problems. Nor, in fact, will designing out crime (that just displaces criminals to another sort of crime).

Almost all crime problems can be addressed by focused attention by police. That is why we see a constant stream of "Crime cut by 63%!" headlines. Unfortunately this cannot be maintained, or applied universally, because the necessary focusing of resources cannot be maintained with anything like the current numbers of officers.

The only way crime is addressed long-term is by treating the causes not the symptoms. And they are social problems for the most part, not policing ones or crime prevention ones. And this focus on "community" initiatives is a red-herring, because most of the social problems are caused by national (or even international) policies.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Maybe cos you're known and respected round your way?

Well, I'm a known face. As for as the out-of-control kids, respect is a word that has been perverted. What they regard as respect is actually being feared. They don't fear me. However my son was about to get robbed for the umpteenth time about a year ago when a boy off our estate intervened and said 'low it, he's from our ends' which basically means, 'he's local enough, leave him.'
I think that's more it. Known local face from the estate. I greet, and am greeted by, a lot of local people though which means I may well nod, smile and chat to their neighbours, gran, big sister or whatever.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, I'm a known face. As for as the out-of-control kids, respect is a word that has been perverted. What they regard as respect is actually being feared. They don't fear me. However my son was about to get robbed for the umpteenth time about a year ago when a boy off our estate intervened and said 'low it, he's from our ends' which basically means, 'he's local enough, leave him.'
I think that's more it. Known local face from the estate. I greet, and am greeted by, a lot of local people though which means I may well nod, smile and chat to their neighbours, gran, big sister or whatever.

Sounds like you've been ok, but not members of your family.

 

[Pie 1]

My only mugging was on Railton Rd directly adjacent to that underpass & they scarpered towards it afterwards.
Having said that, I've walked past it hundreds of time over the years in all states & at all times.
I'm definately on guard around it's imidiate vicinity though.

 

[hendo]

Somerleyton Road worries me when I'm walking down it; never in the dark on my own is my rule.

The police contradict themselves all the time about issues like these. We're often told that crime isn't happening and we're victims of a shapeless 'fear of crime', but the police then augment this by putting up, without any consultation, yellow signs on lamp posts which tell us we're about to be the victims of muggers.

But the fact is that muggings are up massively and Somerleyton Road feels like robbery central.

Another thing police always say is that a large proportion of crimes are generally committed by a small group of people, which makes you wonder what they're doing to sort it out, if anything.

I've heard of some estates in my own old stamping ground in Wythenshawe organising neighbourhood watches and the like to help the police crack down, and people say they work. But that would be a tough thing to do on that estate it seems to me.

 

[detective-boy]

There's nothing inherently bad about a subway or underpass - there are hundreds of them around the place. There is no need to think it has to be removed.

The problems arise when:

1. They're not lit properly leaving dark bits in which crims can lurk and which add to the general fear of crime anyway (solved by lighting improvements)
2. They contain blind corners / recesses which crims can hide round / in and jump people from (solved by smoothing corners, blocking / gating unnecessary recesses, mirrors, etc.)
3. They are not overlooked by passers-by, giving crims a sense of confidence that no-one is observing them and again adding to fear of crime as all people feel the same (solved by installing CCTV in the subways - with realistic monitoring arrangements)
4. They provide a run through into very distinct areas - this allows for crims on foot / pedal cycles / mopeds to evade pursuing people / police in larger vehicles (only designed out by blocking off (cycles / mopeds can be designed out by fences to some extent))

1,2 and 3 can be solved without removing the route for people. None are particularly expensive, at least to make some difference. What they DO need is persistent local pressure on the local Crime and Disorder Partnership / Community - Police Consultative Group.

4 is not, in all honesty, a major issue and can be overcome by competent policing (i.e. local knowledge leading units to think ahead during a pursuit and position themselves on the other side of such places)

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Sounds like you've been ok, but not members of your family.

Every time bar once my son has been 'out of his area' and it's always been coming home from school related (in Stockwell not Brixton) and the only time he was hurt it wasn't a robbery it was a drunk man in his thirties who randomly punched him at a bus stop a few miles away from where we live (Croydon not Brixton).

 

[detective-boy]

without any consultation

There probably has been some - but consultation is with specific local bodies / committees / whatever and they are notorious for not speaking to people outside their own circles of interest / influence.

That said, detailed, proper consultation on any move like this would be way too bureaucratic / expensive to pursue. Advising people what is happening and why, linking it to wider, more strategic consultation on bigger picture issues (i.e. "We're putting signs up for x reason in y place. This is consistent with aspect z of the 2006-7 Crime Reduction Strategy on which there was wide consultation") could be done more. But, to some extent, the different agencies need to be allowed to get on with what they are tasked to do, and then be assessed on perfromance against overall targets at the end of the year.

In my experience this all disappears in a confusion of statistics (none of which usually bear any connection with reality and which invariably demonstrate success - it would be really refreshing to hear the police come back after a period pursuing one strategy and say "Well, that didn't seem to work. Anyone got any idea what we should try next?").

 

[detective-boy]

'out of his area'

For me, that is the most worrying trend - and it appears to be connected to many of the shootings / stabbings as well.

Kids from different areas / schools have always had some level of rivalry and it has always sometimes led to fairly large scale fights - but until recently these have not involved anything more than scuffling and the odd punch and bloody nose.

The use of knives and guns, and the actual targetting of people out of their area, or over some real or perceived inter-area sleight, is terrifying ... where are they getting this from? Is it their own version of what they see / hear about America? Is it a very local version (bearing in mind frequent connections with music and street art and "crews") of what has been played out between East Coast and West Coast in America for years (in a very public way, in music, with challenges issued and replies made in sequential releases)?

The source has to be identified before it can be addressed - simply telling them all "It's bad" may have some effect, but it will not solve the problem.

 

[detective-boy]

Another thing police always say is that a large proportion of crimes are generally committed by a small group of people, which makes you wonder what they're doing to sort it out, if anything.

I suspect very much that they can list them for you. And demonstrate how they have repeated arrested / charged and prosecuted them, only for the Courts to release on bail / give community sentences (which are ignored largely).

I have recently done some work with another semi-inner London borough and that was definitely the case there.

They have lost any respect / fear of the criminal justice system because they perceive no actual bad consequences. Hence the police can do little more (catching and prosecution people is all they can do). The problem is someone else's.

Your question should be "What are education / youth services / social services doing to sort it out, if anything?".

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I think it's not unconnected with how drastically a child's world has 'shrunk' over the decades. There is a perception that only 'bad' parents allow their children to play out unattended. Free travel on the buses has not yet expanded children's horizons either. I remember taking a load of year 8 children from Islington to the Globe. They were really excited by the sights and places I pointed out to them and sadly all said they only used public transport to and from school because they didn't go 'out of their area' apart from school. For most kids 'their area' is literally no more than a quarter of a mile in each direction, if that.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

It's also worth bearing in mind that the victims of youth crime are largely other children.
ETA
(as opposed to adults I mean) Children are also much less likely to report crime to police and are very reluctant to let their parents report it either.

 

[story]

Well, I'm a known face. As for as the out-of-control kids, respect is a word that has been perverted. What they regard as respect is actually being feared. They don't fear me. However my son was about to get robbed for the umpteenth time about a year ago when a boy off our estate intervened and said 'low it, he's from our ends' which basically means, 'he's local enough, leave him.'
I think that's more it. Known local face from the estate. I greet, and am greeted by, a lot of local people though which means I may well nod, smile and chat to their neighbours, gran, big sister or whatever.

That's what I meant, but without knowing all the lingo

 

[TopCat]

lambeth and Southwark Community Transport are based in omerleyton Road. I often visit in the daytime, never hassled but at night it is rather different.

 

[han]

The best thing is to change it. It love my home and I love Brixton. I've brought up 3 children here, my social network is here and the pros far outweigh the cons.

hear hear!

 

[han]

For most kids 'their area' is literally no more than a quarter of a mile in each direction, if that.

This is very true.
A teacher friend of mine took her S London pupils to the theatre in central London once, and many of them had never ever been north of the river before!

It's disturbing, this thing of kids not being able to leave the tiny area in which they live.

Personally, I cycle along Somerleyton and through the underpass under the railway on my way to and from work and have never had any probs....having said that, I do find myself cycling extra fast when cycling in the dark....it just 'feels' a bit dodgy to me, lots of kids loitering around that park area....

 

[detective-boy]

Children are also much less likely to report crime to police and are very reluctant to let their parents report it either.

Quite true. Child-on-child minor / low-value crime is a majorly under-reported category which receives little attention. It arises as an extension of bullying but doesn't have to go far before it actually becomes robbery (max. penalty Life) in the eyes of the criminal law ... at the lower levels I am sure that some of the kids (both suspects and victims) do not see it as serious crime, or even crime at all, but just "bullying" ...

 

[detective-boy]

....it just 'feels' a bit dodgy to me,

Welcome to an actual experience of "the fear of crime" ... people mock that it exists but it is very real and has very real effects on some people's lives and how they live them.

 

[han]

It's true, it is the fear of something happening, rather than anything based on personal experience.

However, call me a hippy, but I do believe that places have an 'energy' about them. You can feel the harmony (or disharmony) in a place, don't you think ? It's not JUST based on your own fears.

 

[myname]

my chain fell off my bike once when i was cycling down somerleyton road, all of a sudden I was surrounded by youth.....

they offerred to help me put the chain on and then gave me tissues to wipe my hands.

so there are some very sweet children round that area too!

 

[han]

so there are some very sweet children round that area too!

Indeed, I really don't think there's any such thing as a 'bad kid' (except in some extreme cases). It's just a case of kids being brought up with love, support, and time. Or not, as the case may be. Anyway - that's a different discussion. Oops!

 

[TopCat]

It's true, it is the fear of something happening, rather than anything based on personal experience.

However, call me a hippy, but I do believe that places have an 'energy' about them. You can feel the harmony (or disharmony) in a place, don't you think ? It's not JUST based on your own fears.

Hippy!

 

[han]

 

[netbob]

There's a meeting of the Brixton Town Center safer neighbourhoods group next week, which I'm a member of (and in theory gets to set the polices priorities). I'll bring up Somerleyton Road and report back. PM me if you want anything in particular mentioned.