Some tube strikes, just for a change.

[cesare]

Fortunately, the result of the strike ballots has rather focused management's minds and after 3 weeks of negotiations with experienced trade union health and safety reps, LUL have taken a step back from this madness. You can expect an announcement within the next 2 or 3 days that the strikes will be off and the safety of passengers once again secured by Bob Crow

 

[teuchter]

Currently every station has to be opened and closed by qualified and licensed supervisors who will make sure that the infrastructure is safe before allowing passengers into a potentially dangerous environment. LUL want to replace these experienced members of staff, between 8pm and 6am, with agency security guards who will be unable to carry out the relevant checks. LUL are getting around the current agreements by arguing that the security guards will not be "opening and closing" the stations but "unlocking and locking" them (I kid you not).

What exactly are the safety checks that the supervisors carry out at present?

LUL also want to end the current system of one supervisor per station and replace it with "mobile supervision". These super-supervisors will need to transport themselves from one location to another in the event of an emergency; the fact that many emergencies result in the transport system shutting down, rendering the supervisors immobile, appears to have escaped the geniuses who come up with these ideas.

I had the impression from the first press release that the "mobile supervisors" were to be applied to the ex-Silverlink lines, but do I understand correctly that you're saying they were proposing it for the conventional underground stations as well?

Fortunately, the result of the strike ballots has rather focused management's minds and after 3 weeks of negotiations with experienced trade union health and safety reps, LUL have taken a step back from this madness. You can expect an announcement within the next 2 or 3 days that the strikes will be off and the safety of passengers once again secured by Bob Crow

LUL say that these negotiations were already underway before the strikes were announced. Is that untrue?

I suspect they would say it's good to see Bob Crow & co. stepping back from the strike threat madness.

 

[butchersapron]

Some things never change ay oxpecker?

 

[Onket]

strike threat madness.

 

[Oxpecker]

Some things never change ay oxpecker?

Indeed. Not sure if it's ever worth replying to Teutonic - s/he's as bad as Crow, never satisfied with the answer

 

[teuchter]

Indeed. Not sure if it's ever worth replying to Teutonic - s/he's as bad as Crow, never satisfied with the answer

When you (or anyone else) do take the time to answer my questions I appreciate it, and I read it. I can't guarantee I will be "satisfied" with it but it is definitely useful, certainly compared with many of the responses above.
So if you feel like answering my other questions then I will be grateful. I only want to understand more fully what the dispute is about, in order that my opinion is as informed as it can be.
I know that we have established previously, however, that my understanding of/sympathy with your objections is not of much interest to you.

 

[Isambard]

I know that we have established previously, however, that my understanding of/sympathy with your objections is not of much interest to you.

Although it is nice to have, public sympathy doesn't win strikes.

What makes strikes effective is that the production of goods (in this case rail services) ceases to happen becasue the workers withdraw their labour.

Accepting the argument and not striking for the sake of "public sympathy" reduces the potency of the workers side, becasue despite being in dispute those goods (and profit) are still being produced.

"Public sympathy" demands immediate re-nationalisation of public the transport, with no compensation to the private operators. Any chance of tht being tomorrow's Evening Substandard headline?

If industrial disputes all depended on "public sympathy" (cue argument about the role ofthe media) why have the bosses tried to legislate against workers organising and withdrawing thier labour since we moved to a capaitalist form of society?



<waves flirtily at Oxpecker>

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Yes, quite. I no longer commute, but I feel enough solidarity with my fellow office toilers to fully support the extrajudicial execution of Bob Crow, and the displaying of his severed head on Tower Bridge.

how much solidarity would you feel if due to cost cutting they end up running another tube into the platform like chancery lane ...

or if they have another kings cross...

we are talking about here basically a company who have no experince in the work they are about to undertake (they used to sell portaloos or something equally unrealated to maintaining the tube and are now bid and sucessfully won the contract to rewire the place). so how much solidarty do you feel with the average joe worker when they end up coming up against the bureaucratic nightmare of LU/TFL/former MetroNet et al whent hey try and get compensation and not one of them will be willing to take the blame.

or will you as now turn round and say well tough you didn't have to use the tube it's your own look out i'm alright jack pull the ladder up...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I'm glad to hear that the dead won't be going unburied on the Piccadilly line.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

But what is in their interest isn't necessarily in the wider interest.

in what way care to go in to specific details, regarding specific issues...

 

[TopCat]

Go for it aslef and the RMT.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

For what its worth I support this strike. Even though its going to cause me a lot of inconvenience.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

how much solidarity would you feel if due to cost cutting they end up running another tube into the platform like chancery lane ...

or if they have another kings cross...

we are talking about here basically a company who have no experince in the work they are about to undertake (they used to sell portaloos or something equally unrealated to maintaining the tube and are now bid and sucessfully won the contract to rewire the place). so how much solidarty do you feel with the average joe worker when they end up coming up against the bureaucratic nightmare of LU/TFL/former MetroNet et al whent hey try and get compensation and not one of them will be willing to take the blame.

or will you as now turn round and say well tough you didn't have to use the tube it's your own look out i'm alright jack pull the ladder up...

I agree that the PPP was daft and that the bodies who have taken over the tube are untrustworthy. But I'd actually trust the HSE and other regulatory bodies to monitor their cost-cutting over a devious little shit like Crow whose principal concern is protecting spanish practices and overmanning.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

I agree that the PPP was daft and that the bodies who have taken over the tube are untrustworthy. But I'd actually trust the HSE and other regulatory bodies to monitor their cost-cutting over a devious little shit like Crow whose principal concern is protecting spanish practices and overmanning.

the HSE don't have to do it anymore they can self cert the HS since the start of last year... so guess what happens...

would you want people like blafour beatie who have rail experince doing the work let alone a company with no proven experince doing it.

they got the job let's be clear not for their expertise but because they were significanly cheaper...

 

[Maurice Picarda]

the HSE don't have to do it anymore they can self cert the HS since the start of last year...

That sounds odd. But without the full contractual details it's difficult to judge the merits of self cert, and you'd have to concede the possibility that Bob Crow is an evil-eyed shitbag with an eye to the main chance and a secret underground bolthole stashed with loot.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

That sounds odd. But without the full contractual details it's difficult to judge the merits of self cert, and you'd have to concede the possibility that Bob Crow is an evil-eyed shitbag with an eye to the main chance and a secret underground bolthole stashed with loot.

you need an utter unscruplulious cunt to get in the ring with utter unscruplulious cunts...

besides it seems to me to be the case that he's hearlded as a cunt primarly because he stops people getting to work on a system which is being literally driven into the ground by cost cutting and fudging of figures from people lining their own pockets at taxpapers and employeees expensise whislt they bugger the main arterial system of transport for our capital...

Place it into context with say anythign which labour has done...

I think their ought to be many more cunts like him you say fuck you and spit in eye of anyone who attempts to undermine the principals they are standing for...

the bottom line is that people punters workers and the like are expendable, sometimes in order to stop a cull you need a big bad wolf to scare away the poachers...

 

[teuchter]

Although it is nice to have, public sympathy doesn't win strikes.

What makes strikes effective is that the production of goods (in this case rail services) ceases to happen becasue the workers withdraw their labour.

Accepting the argument and not striking for the sake of "public sympathy" reduces the potency of the workers side, becasue despite being in dispute those goods (and profit) are still being produced.

"Public sympathy" demands immediate re-nationalisation of public the transport, with no compensation to the private operators. Any chance of tht being tomorrow's Evening Substandard headline?

If industrial disputes all depended on "public sympathy" (cue argument about the role ofthe media) why have the bosses tried to legislate against workers organising and withdrawing thier labour since we moved to a capaitalist form of society?



<waves flirtily at Oxpecker>

I understand that from the purely selfish viewpoint of the strikers, public sympathy is not a priority, nor is public opinion necessarily good (or informed) opinion.

But, I would have thought, if I were going to go on strike, then I would want to convince myself that my reasons for doing so were justified. And if I had convinced myself that my reasons were justified then I would feel comfortable discussing those and defending them to others, and would be happy to provide others with the information to help them understand why I had come to such a conclusion.

That's what always seems to be missing in these discussions - full information about what the actual issues are: what has been offered or proposed by either side and what has been rejected or accepted.

I kind of think that if it's affecting a public service, especially a publiucly owned public service like the tube, then it's fair to ask (as a user of and funder of that service) to see the details of whatever negotiations are going on. I have to say I'm not quite sure who should be responsible for providing these - the unions or LUL - but it would seem reasonable to suggest that they should be in the public domain.

 

[teuchter]

in what way care to go in to specific details, regarding specific issues...

Well, to start with, an unecessarily expensive, inefficient or overly safety-conscious tube system is not in the wider interest.

Just like our currently overly-safety-conscious National Rail system is not in the public interest.

 

[Isambard]

I think the workers involved in disptes clamou to try and get thier argument into the public domain but are often drowned out out by the bosses case being put.
and/or "reasonable", "neutral" arguments.

 

[teuchter]

I think the workers involved in disptes clamou to try and get thier argument into the public domain but are often drowned out out by the bosses case being put.
and/or "reasonable", "neutral" arguments.

I don't think that's true.

Certainly not in this case. Unless you can point me in the direction of somewhere where the full details have been published.

What do you mean by their argument being drowned out by "reasonable" arguments? This suggests that the strikers' argument is unreasonable.

 

[Isambard]

Just as a quick off the top of my head example of the "reasonable" argument strategy:

When there was a possibility of a tube strike six to nine months or so ago over pay, there wwas the argument in the media: Can someone in London exect to earn 30K a year "just" for being a tube driver?"

Now the resposnse that "they" wanted of course was "no" rather than examing what kind of life that salary means under what conditions.

 

[Oxpecker]

That's what always seems to be missing in these discussions - full information about what the actual issues are: what has been offered or proposed by either side and what has been rejected or accepted.

You don't want much, do you?

I've been on the negotiating team for the past 3 - 4 weeks; the changes from both sides have been considerable but as we're about to make recommendations to our members I can't expand on this. Maybe next week, when the dust has settled, I'll give you some sort of genuine insight via pm.

 

[Oxpecker]

In the meantime, here's a link to an article that gives some idea of the situation (it's a couple of weeks old)

http://solidaritymagazine.wordpress.com/2008/03/19/tube-safety-talks-stall-again/

 

[Urbanblues]

Just as a quick off the top of my head example of the "reasonable" argument strategy:

When there was a possibility of a tube strike six to nine months or so ago over pay, there wwas the argument in the media: Can someone in London exect to earn 30K a year "just" for being a tube driver?"

Now the resposnse that "they" wanted of course was "no" rather than examing what kind of life that salary means under what conditions.

That argument was fallacious. Why didn’t they ask: Can someone in London expect to be paid hundreds of thousands in bonuses just for snorting coke?

Last year’s ‘threatened’ strikes had nothing to do with tube train drivers. The disputes involved support staff employed by maintenance firm Metronet.

 

[jæd]

That argument was fallacious. Why didn’t they ask: Can someone in London expect to be paid hundreds of thousands in bonuses just for snorting coke?

Last year’s ‘threatened’ strikes had nothing to do with tube train drivers. The disputes involved support staff employed by maintenance firm Metronet.

Thing is, a Tube Driver can be replaced (eventually) by a computer controlling the trains. All the Drivers know this so they (a) don't want it and (b) trying to make as much cash before they go the way of the Ticket Clerk...

Replacing coke snorting fat cats is much harder...

 

[Oxpecker]

They already have the technology to operate trains without drivers; the new stock on the Picc and Vic have it built-in already. The problem for LUL is that passengers consistently reject the idea of being stuck in a tunnel 200 feet underground in the morning peak with no possibility of human intervention should the on-train computer need re-booting. I "drive" Central Line trains which are supposed to get from end to end automatically, but I can barely remember one journey when I haven't had to intervene in some way to allow the train to continue.

I have a feeling I'll be retired long before they do away with drivers on the tube.

 

[jæd]

They already have the technology to operate trains without drivers; the new stock on the Picc and Vic have it built-in already. The problem for LUL is that passengers consistently reject the idea of being stuck in a tunnel 200 feet underground in the morning peak with no possibility of human intervention should the on-train computer need re-booting.

Bring back Guards, then, though I highly doubt they'll be running Windows... But then I expect they'll expect £ 35k a year and 6 months holidays for sitting in a Tube Train reading a paper...!

 

[teuchter]

You don't want much, do you?

I've been on the negotiating team for the past 3 - 4 weeks; the changes from both sides have been considerable but as we're about to make recommendations to our members I can't expand on this. Maybe next week, when the dust has settled, I'll give you some sort of genuine insight via pm.

That would certainly be interesting if you did.


What is your opinion on the suggestion that details of such negotiations should be made public? Do you feel that is an unreasonable thing to request? Would it compromise the negotiations themselves, if either party knew that what they were saying were to be made public?

 

[Urbanblues]

Thing is, a Tube Driver can be replaced (eventually) by a computer controlling the trains. All the Drivers know this so they (a) don't want it and (b) trying to make as much cash before they go the way of the Ticket Clerk...

Replacing coke snorting fat cats is much harder...

Oh well, when you're lying in a tube train wreckage; sloshing around in your own faecal matter and piss while your life's blood draining away; maybe, only maybe, you’ll wonder if this could have been avoided if the train was equiped with a driver.

I hope as those final seconds hurtle towards you; and, your life begins its final phase of insignificance; I hope your last thoughts sum up the utter uselessness of your existence, and the hollowness of your politics.

 

[jæd]

Oh well, when you're lying in a tube train wreckage; sloshing around in your own faecal matter and piss while your life's blood draining away; maybe, only maybe, you’ll wonder if this could have been avoided if the train was equiped with a driver.

I hope as those final seconds hurtle towards you; and, your life begins its final phase of insignificance; I hope your last thoughts sum up the utter uselessness of your existence, and the hollowness of your politics.

What a cheery fellow you are...! One would think if LU where to finally implement driverless trains they'd have advanced the technology a bit... Dunno why this is "hollow politics". Do people really want to be driving trains in dark tunnels under London if the technology can be made available...