Some c-nt from Vauxhall demanding scrapping schemes
- Thread starter moose
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Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Hi Extra Dry.
There are several major, though not insoluable, problems with electric cars. We've discussed them at length on this board in the past, but the main ones are performance and range between charges, both of which are improving rapidly but still have some way to go.
Another more down-to-earth issue is charging, in streets that don't have off street parking, there would be cables everywhere. This can be solved simply, but rolling it out to every street would take time and cost money.
I think electric has a future, and it may well help provide a market for new cars- and hence jobs-in the future but it is nowhere near ready as a solution to the current economic crisis.
There are several major, though not insoluable, problems with electric cars. We've discussed them at length on this board in the past, but the main ones are performance and range between charges, both of which are improving rapidly but still have some way to go.
Another more down-to-earth issue is charging, in streets that don't have off street parking, there would be cables everywhere. This can be solved simply, but rolling it out to every street would take time and cost money.
I think electric has a future, and it may well help provide a market for new cars- and hence jobs-in the future but it is nowhere near ready as a solution to the current economic crisis.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
In some future world where everyone has an electric car, very few people would choose to use petrol, IMHO. Simply on the grounds of running costs alone-unless the government finds a way to tax electricity used by cars without taxing electric used by everything else.
I'm not suggesting a full-on conspiracy, but I can see how the government might be in no hurry to 'drive electric'- loss of tax revenue coupled with costly up-front recharging infarstructure plus need for new power stations equals large hole in public finances.
johnnymarrsbars
www.friendrock.co.uk
Agent Sparrow
AGENT TRAITOR; fools 8 year olds
When I saw the title of this thread I thought 'what's the fact that he's from Vauxhall got to do with it?'
Me too.
I'm so Londoncentric.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7903172.stm
Dunno if this is something to brag about, but Ricky Branson agrees with me.
Dunno if this is something to brag about, but Ricky Branson agrees with me.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
I don't care how good the reviews are, I saw one today and it's PUG ugly!!
Extra dry, away you go back to your public transport and cycling(or however you get about)
I'm not wanting an electric car, I'd never fit a week's supply of wood in it
Let alone some shopping as well.
It's the headline story in Germany right now, they are basicly facing going to the wall becasuse of GM
You've not heard of a thing called the EU have you?
Like it or not the UK is in a common market.
DarthSydodyas
rusting
Just out of interest, how much experience do you have of assembly lines in car manufacturing?
But the build quality is only down to the workers to a (very) small amount - most build quality these days is produced at the design stage. It's how good your modules and parts are and that's down to how much you spend - it's down to the manufacturing tolerances used - it's if you design the car to be 'easy to assemble'. It's a very complex business - Citroen have just made a mega leap on quality (for them) with their newest designed cars - because they decided they needed to go that way they had to design the quality into the cars. The new C5 is built by the same workers as the superceded model but the quality of the product has taken a big leap forward.
British mass produced car industry died because they didn't do enough design and development - the cars were poorly designed because they hadn't spent enough money getting it right. Designers design what 'top' management tell them to within a budget - shop floor workers can only put together the parts they are given- give them crap parts to put together, you'll get crap cars coming out the door at the end of the line
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
the cars i race have to have the smallest carbon footprint of any cars really they've been used for over 80 years surely this is better than some throw away replace every 3 years eurobox which isn't going to last 80 years...
However there will come a point where most modern cars from the 80's onwards bare the rare breeds will need to be scrapped. It's an inveitablity partially this will happen with tougher and tougher laws regarding airborne pollutants and partiall because as already highlighted they won't last...
anyway seeing as at present you have to pay most scrap yards to take a defunct car (due to the extreme cost of having to recycle a car and the preparrtion hard standing liquid disposal etc you need to do in scrapping one) what this would lead to is a lot more plateless vin less cars being dumped in side streets and abandoned
However there will come a point where most modern cars from the 80's onwards bare the rare breeds will need to be scrapped. It's an inveitablity partially this will happen with tougher and tougher laws regarding airborne pollutants and partiall because as already highlighted they won't last...
anyway seeing as at present you have to pay most scrap yards to take a defunct car (due to the extreme cost of having to recycle a car and the preparrtion hard standing liquid disposal etc you need to do in scrapping one) what this would lead to is a lot more plateless vin less cars being dumped in side streets and abandoned
DarthSydodyas
rusting
Spot on.
- Quality of sourced parts
- Quality of training provided to front line people
- Cohesion between product engineers and front line people
- Delivery is often put at the forefront of Quality.
- ... and so on.
More often than not, we do identify problems we encounter and there are good standard working practises to trap this information, but it is worthless without the support of management and backed up by production engineers who would ultimately resolve them.
I'd like to know what more assembly staff could do to improve the quality because we are doing everything we are expected (and in some cases, much more). Perhaps that is something the OP can respond to.
Fullyplumped
in a personal capacity
Don't answer that - he'll just say that if you haven't worked on an assembly line making cars you're not qualified to comment.
I know how these internet forums work, believe me.
DarthSydodyas
rusting
You and your third eye.Don't answer that - he'll just say that if you haven't worked on an assembly line making cars you're not qualified to comment.
I know how these internet forums work, believe me.
fredfelt
Mostly unknown member
And here is the story reported in the Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/gr...s-could-be-paid-to-trade-in-gas-guzzlers.html
I could see how this could be a green policy if a scheme could be worked out where traded your old car in for a bus pass, bike, or even tokens for insulating your home but for another car nah, silly idea.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/gr...s-could-be-paid-to-trade-in-gas-guzzlers.html
I could see how this could be a green policy if a scheme could be worked out where traded your old car in for a bus pass, bike, or even tokens for insulating your home but for another car nah, silly idea.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Just been on the news - they can't run their business properly, so now they're demanding governments not only give them a bail-out, but introduce compulsory scrapping of older cars so there are customers to buy their shitty new ones, all to protect the jobs of 6000 workshy bastards who can't even turn out a decent product.
Thats targetting me, I have a 14 year old car. Still if they forced me to scrap that I would not be in the market for a new car, I would still not be able to afford it and not be prepared to stand the immediate depreciation either.
The crunch is a bit of a sod. I mean you can be making a perfectly market worthy product, basically doing nothing wrong, but there can simply be no buyers for what you are offering.
It is a cruel thing a market place.
But that is not to say that these companies should be supported.
DarthSydodyas
rusting
Wasn't it France and/or Germany subsidising purchases of new cars? A 2000euro sub?
I think it's nonsensical.
It doesn't make sense in environmental terms because of the energy involved in producing the replacement cars the fact that although cars now are a lot cleaner than they used to be I don't think the improvement over the last decade or so has been all that great - especially in Germany, where they've had mandatory catalytic converters and so on for a long time.
Scrapping cars with years of life left in them is inherently very wasteful - and if these laws are going to be introduced in several countries, might we not see manufacturers designing cars with even more built-in obsolescence than they have now? After all, what's the point in building cars to last thirty years when like as not they'll be scrapped within ten?
Besides, as someone who likes older cars, I think it's a shame that people are being encouraged to scrap vehicles that one day could well become rare and of historical interest. Very few cars remain in daily use by the time they're twenty years old: rust, mechanical failure, depreciation and tighter roadworthiness tests see to that. Old and (more) polluting cars built before modern emissions laws were introduced will dwindle away to insignificant numbers anyway: I don't see much to be gained from spending public money to hasten the process by a few years.
Tbh I think grants towards buying new cars have far more to do with supporting car manufacturers by expanding the market for new cars than they do with reducing emissions.
It doesn't make sense in environmental terms because of the energy involved in producing the replacement cars the fact that although cars now are a lot cleaner than they used to be I don't think the improvement over the last decade or so has been all that great - especially in Germany, where they've had mandatory catalytic converters and so on for a long time.
Scrapping cars with years of life left in them is inherently very wasteful - and if these laws are going to be introduced in several countries, might we not see manufacturers designing cars with even more built-in obsolescence than they have now? After all, what's the point in building cars to last thirty years when like as not they'll be scrapped within ten?
Besides, as someone who likes older cars, I think it's a shame that people are being encouraged to scrap vehicles that one day could well become rare and of historical interest. Very few cars remain in daily use by the time they're twenty years old: rust, mechanical failure, depreciation and tighter roadworthiness tests see to that. Old and (more) polluting cars built before modern emissions laws were introduced will dwindle away to insignificant numbers anyway: I don't see much to be gained from spending public money to hasten the process by a few years.
Tbh I think grants towards buying new cars have far more to do with supporting car manufacturers by expanding the market for new cars than they do with reducing emissions.
DarthSydodyas
rusting
Yep. I believe the French version of the subsidy was towards french cars only.
This begs the question is there room to blackmail (in the nicest possible way) these manufacturers to force them to pump more eco-freindly cars into markets. I know we still produce the older (and higher-emission) engines because there is still a demand for it, otherwise we'd head for more efficient (eco, fuel) units - as these have been prototyped but only just heading towards production. Very laggy process but it is unfortunately down to customer demand.
geminisnake
a complex mass of conflicting ideas
Pretty much what me & hubby were saying the other day. How can scrapping ok cars be green?
This is a bad idea. It isn't "green" to scrap functional vehicles just so we can make more and more new ones.
If people don't want to buy new things, then the factory making those things will have to close. Tough shit.
Also, any plans to increase taxes on older vehicles would be politically very hard to justify or implement - it would be seen as a very regressive tax, hitting the poorer people who are more likely to own older cars.
It is also an important principle that if you buy a car that conforms to the laws when you bought it, it should remain legal forever.
We don't force people to retro-fit seatbelts, catalytic converters, airbags or anything else to cars that pre-dated the introduction of these things.
Giles..
If people don't want to buy new things, then the factory making those things will have to close. Tough shit.
Also, any plans to increase taxes on older vehicles would be politically very hard to justify or implement - it would be seen as a very regressive tax, hitting the poorer people who are more likely to own older cars.
It is also an important principle that if you buy a car that conforms to the laws when you bought it, it should remain legal forever.
We don't force people to retro-fit seatbelts, catalytic converters, airbags or anything else to cars that pre-dated the introduction of these things.
Giles..
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