"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by Fozzie Bear, May 22, 2018.

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  1. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    It reminds me of the notion proposed by the medical historian Edward Shorter, used mostly in relation to mental illnesses, that each society has its own culturally determined 'symptom pool', into which we all subconsciously dip when something is wrong in order to manifest the wrongness. The specific time and place of 'outbreaks' of various conditions such as bulimia seems to bear this out. Also depression and psychosis are treated and express themselves very differently across cultures (ours with our psychiatrists and SSRIs and anti-psychotics seems to fare rather badly in comparison with some others). Some conditions, such as clinical depression, are pushed within a medical model basically in order to push drugs on us, and we respond by providing the symptoms that are expected of us.

    This is difficult to talk about in this context because I have no intention to be hurtful or to try to downplay the reality of gender dysphoria, but Shorter has traced the history of this kind of process with various conditions.
    sheothebudworths, bimble and Edie like this.
  2. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    It's a good point. I remember quite some time back (20-25 years ago) there was a lot of interest in uncovering the mechanisms behind homosexuality. Nowadays we still don't understand it, but we accept it. Gay people have always been among us, and that's how it is.

    I think sexual preference is a little different to gender identity in various ways, though. Certainly we should accept that some people don't fit in the box we assign at birth, but I think its important to work out whether the issue is with them or with us, otherwise we risk causing a lot of harm by "fixing the wrong body" when its not the body that is at fault.
    xenon likes this.
  3. campanula

    campanula plant a seed

    Yes, I think so...since, desire has always played a significant role in defining our sexual personae...and desire definitely for people/experience/connection outside of ourself (as well as our own internal landscape).
    And does, I think, map onto the apparent primacy of sexuality causing some grief...at least for those of us for which this, at least in any form not subliminally hidden/diverted, is a baffling, difficult and fearful arena.
    littlebabyjesus likes this.
  4. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    The case of depression and how different cultures understand it is an excellent point. There's a brilliant youtube talk on this - I'll try and dig it up.
    Edie likes this.
  5. nyxx

    nyxx Well-Known Member

    Not meaning to be making wild assumptions about you here - I could be wrong - but when people say this sort of thing it usually indicates they’re completely blind to the male privilege they experience on a daily basis.
  6. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    If we're proposing medical intervention, that suggests a need for some handle on it, I would have thought. We have reached a point in the UK and similar societies at least where very few people think of being gay as a medical condition, but if you are seeking medical treatment in order to transition, you're necessarily manifesting a medical condition of some kind.
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  7. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Can you unpack that a bit?
  8. Puddy_Tat

    Puddy_Tat for the workers' breakfast

    and some disagreement within the 'LGB community' - one school of thought trying to argue that it's a genetic thing therefore natural / not a 'choice', and some fears that if the 'gay gene' ever got identified, it could lead to selective abortions / attempts to edit genetics/ kids identified with that gene getting a pretty shit time.
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  9. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Women have said much the same thing on other threads on this topic. Doesn't mean they're blind to the negative impact of patriarchy on their lives. I am well aware that I am treated as a man when I'm out in the world and all that entails, but that wasn't really the point I was making.
  10. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    so much honesty here for a change.
  11. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I think our culture (and very much me included in this) badly overplays the place of the isolated individual and underplays the place of the individual in relation to others, which is often the right place to start with many treatments/therapies. The modern medical model more or less denies this, much to its and our detriment. Maybe it's time to revive some of the spirit of Ronnie Laing.

    So what does that mean here? Maybe something as simple as 'living as a man/woman' has less to do with how you feel and more to do with how others feel about you.
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  12. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Yeah, I was working in a lab back when the media decided we'd found the "gay gene" back in the 90s (we'd found a gene in insects that related to their sexual behaviour). So many phone calls from journalists wanting to know its relevance to human sexuality, who all hung up when we said it had no bearing whatsoever.

    We still don't know why some people are gay and some aren't, and the vast majority of people wouldn't give much of a toss if we suddenly figured it out.

    I think that's progress.

    It related to a mutation in the taste buds on the flies' feet.
    xenon, frogwoman, pengaleng and 2 others like this.
  13. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    'manifesting a medical condition'... heard it all now

  14. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    I was going to post this on the last thread but it got nuked and I decided to keep it. Is quite long but sort of relevent to this I think@

    I'm finding it difficult to phrase this without it sounded provocative but would those questioning the idea of internal gender identity accept that their might be an external factor to gender, one that is probably entirely imposed and difficult to avoid, but which almost all people possess (or perform) to some degree nonetheless.

    Presentation is obviously a part of this, does someone's wardrobe contain solely items which correspond to their assigned sex at birth, or a majority which do, or none which do. Does someone wear make up, or use perfume or aftershave, or gendered scented toiletries, what is their hair like? Do they use face creams, or other typically gendered products? Do they look like their assigned sex, or the opposite one or neither when they look in the mirror, and how much of this is down to their active choices of presentation rather than body shape or bone structure? Do they feel happy when they see themselves as a woman or man in the mirror or unhappy? How would they feel If someone mistook them for the sex different to their assigned sex - insulted, complimented or neutral? If someone went into their home how easy would it be for someone to tell what gender they were by the style of decoration they have or the possessions they own?

    And this is all surface level stuff, there's a lot that is much harder to pin down such as is their body language typically male or female, what pronouns do they (and others) use to describe themselves, how do they feel about their sexual characteristics - do they like their genitals, are they repulsed by them, or simply neutral? How do they like to fuck, do they like to be penetrated or penetrate. If they are a man do they stand or sit to use the toilet? What would an analysis of their speech and vocabulary suggest? How would they feel if they looked in the mirror and had a hairy chest, or tits, or a cock or no cock, would it bother them at all if this wasn't synonymous with their assigned sex? Who are they in their dreams, are they always, never or sometimes the same gender (or sex) as their assigned sex? Would they like to change anything about their bodies to make themselves look more or less like the socially accepted version of their assigned sex? Does the thought having having a sex change, or taking testosterone or estrogen feel comforting or horrifying, or neutral?

    To be clear I'm suggesting any of these things make a man a man or woman a woman, or that few answering these questions will fall into a typical gendered role for all of them. But if the answers to these questions (which I'm not expecting anyone to answer by the way) in the large tends towards one gender or the other then isn't that some form of gender identity, one that perhaps isn't necessarily felt, but it easily objectively observable? And for those who say they don't have a gender identity but present with a gendered identity surely the question is why play along? And if you do play along then is it really fair to criticise trans people for doing the same thing, albeit in my opinion in a slightly more subversive way?
  15. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Pretty much by definition, yep. If you are seeking medical treatment for something, you are manifesting a medical condition.
  16. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    better not get that dodgy mole checked then init
  17. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    Good post. I think part of the problem is that gender dysphoria of the kind that leads to a desire to change your sex can seem a bit of a mysterious thing to someone who doesn't have it. I'm still not clear in my head whether I have a feeling of my gender and it's just so naturalised in me that I don't recognise it or if others have a different sense of gender that I don't really have. I suspect that the sense of gender I do have, such as it is, comes from others' reactions to me - and I don't have any reaction against that, so I don't have gender dysphoria.
  18. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    well why are you here deciding things about other people then??
    Vintage Paw likes this.
  19. littlebabyjesus

    littlebabyjesus one of Maxwell's demons

    I'm not.
  20. 8115

    8115 sitting down is bad for you

    What the fuck does this even mean? You'll have to spell it out for me.
  21. 8115

    8115 sitting down is bad for you

    If you know you could explain too.

    I genuinely don't know except I'm wondering if it's a suggestion that I or people with gender dysphoria don't have perfect bodies.
  22. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    no i dont even know yer body m8

    was just a better performed and apt song for the thread, better thigh song than whatever that skip lady track was

    thick thighs make a dick rise. I dont think thats what edie was saying hers does tho, crushing shit maybe like mens skulls
  23. 8115

    8115 sitting down is bad for you

    I think you've missed the point of the song a bit. Jesus christ it's too late for this sort of thing.
  24. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    Well, its good we've got that cleared up.
    Omaplata and Edie like this.
  25. 8115

    8115 sitting down is bad for you

    Yeah, we'll solve the trans issue in no time at this rate.
    Edie likes this.
  26. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    I'm gonna go and manifest myself a pizza, just seen dominos open til 5am, then gonna practice manifesting monies, proper wizard shit.
  27. 8ball

    8ball Considerably more oppressed than yow

    I think you have to manifest the monies first, then they manifest the pizza.
  28. ginger_syn

    ginger_syn Insanity laughs under pressure...

    So I did some research and yes there was a three week gap between weatherly competing in male and female races but she had been reducing her teststerone level while competing as a man and when she had fulfilled the requirements of the 12 month period of showing testosterone in serum levels below 10nmol/L began competing as a woman as allowed by cycling new zealands rules which are also in line with IOC guidelines, as for 15 year old terry Miller I couldnt find any information about how badly she had done whilst competing as a boy, i will do more research tomorrow, but there is support for her and andraya yearwood who is also transgender and came in second to miller, Connecticut seems to be reasonably progressive for an american stateas for the other two people that were named in your post I'll get round to them at some point, so in conclusion while your post contained an essence of truth to me it still reads as biased and vaguely frothy mouthed truth so I will reserve my right to be concerned about it.
    nyxx likes this.
  29. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    That’s really interesting, gonna read about that idea

    Also smokedout that was a really good post, ta for that
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    smokedout likes this.
  30. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    I didn't know but i do believe you. That is fucking depressing. This whole thing seems to have made feminism implode on itself.
    nyxx likes this.
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