"Solidarity for both trans rights and women's rights" by Janine Booth

Discussion in 'theory, philosophy & history' started by Fozzie Bear, May 22, 2018.

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  1. I thought it was someone who refrained from substances.
  2. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

  3. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    Yeah whilst wearing and listening to particular stuff? I never knew anyway .
  4. wayward bob

    wayward bob i ate all your bees

    <disclaimer> i'm using it as a shorthand for "thinks her parents are dicks for eating meat and taking drugs and is probably right"
    Edie and bimble like this.
  5. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    A few years back, when Caster Semenya was being hounded and discriminated against, most of the women who are now coming out with 'genuine concerns' were actually quite good on why her (semenya's) treatment was appallingly sexist and racist (most of the women facing criticism/censure for their hyperandrogeny being women of colour). Strikes me as them being a tad hypcritical
  6. FabricLiveBaby!

    FabricLiveBaby! /wɜːst tɜːf ɒn ɜːθ/

    It seems like that sometimes.

    This is why I was saying it's more than just sport and AWS. I think it's healthy to acknowledge how people feel about the the other stuff too

    This is just not fair.

    "Letting em transition early" doesn't give anyone a different sexed body. What happens is a kid goes on puberty blockers which stops the development of their primary and secondary sex characteristics.

    No one knows what the long term effects of puberty blockers are because they aren't actually designed to block puberty at all. Lupron (the drug that is used) is supposed to be used to treat prostate cancer in Adults but also has a side label for precocious puberty (puberty that starts before 7 years old). On label, Lupron is supposed to be used for no longer than 6 months, but off label it has been used for longer with side effects such as brittle bones and osteoperosis, particularly in females. It is not a drug without consequences that you take recreationally.

    Once you are given puberty blockers, because it stops your genitals developing, boys then end up with a micro penis and girls do not have ovaries. There is a window for this stuff and once you start taking cross sex hormones you are effectively sterilised and it becomes irreversible (these are only given after 16 years old). It also means that you have no sexual drive because it hasn't been allowed to develop. You essentially become a-sexual. This is all really experimental stuff.

    "OK, so what"

    In males particularly part of sex reassignment surgery, is inverting the penis shaft. If there is not enough tissue there is nothing to invert.This means that part of the colon has to be used instead which makes the surgery much more dangerous and less appealing for any potential sexual partners because the type of bacteria that live on that type of tissue, give that tissue a distinct smell (you can imagine!).

    There's also nothing to orgasm from. Jazz has never had an orgasm and most likely never will.

    These are massive decisions, and quite frankly one I don't think anyone should be taking until they are at least 18 years old. Particularly because brain development is also affect by puberty.

    So it's not all "neeer you're just scared".

    Jazz Jennings in particular is having huge problems both with sexuality (Jazz has no sex drive) and surgery (it has become so complicated surgery might be impossible).

    To compare this to a conservative section 28, I think, is grossly unfair. And to paint those with reservations about childhood transition as some sort of bible thumping lunatic, is a massive misrepresentation.

    It categorically is not the same.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  7. I think people use the term sans the cultural aspect nowadays for a teetotal.
  8. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    i don't believe they do, it implies rather more than that, neither drinking nor taking drugs.
  9. bimble

    bimble noisy but small

    yeah its like loads of women previously sound and 'on the right side of history' have just for no reason all decided to turn into hateful bigots overnight for a laugh sometime between 2016 and now.
  10. belboid

    belboid TUC Off Your Knees

    your usual level of insight there, bumble
  11. baldrick

    baldrick ooooh timewarp

    I don't want to have a go here, but to say that beating a 14 year old record for 100m by 0.1 of a second is "not really such a great difference" isn't really true. I appreciate this is amateur athletics but the margins between winning and losing and breaking records have been tiny over sprint distances for a long time now. To break a record by a tenth of a second is quite significant.
    weepiper likes this.
  12. Yes which is what I said in post #721
  13. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    not really being as when people talk about substances they generally mean illicit drugs rather than booze. but never mind.
  14. Good job I mentioned both over the course of two posts then eh? :p
  15. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    your usual 50% of a job in each post
  16. Which, I believe, adds up to 100%
  17. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    it doesn't work like that when you only do half the job each time.

    moving on...
  18. Of course it does. It’s an evolving discussion not a dictionary entry.
  19. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    yeh. *moving on*...
    Magnus McGinty likes this.
  20. Edie

    Edie Well-Known Member

    I would absolutely, 100% have very serious concerns if either of my boys wanted to transition. Fuckin right I would.

    It is a major medical decision, that would have life long implications on health and sexuality. There’s pretty much no data on drug safety for this use. Let alone the implication of surgery. Or rates of de-transition, over a lifetime.

    I don’t think this is comparable to sexuality for those reasons. And you simplifying it to ‘just transitioning before puberty’ is way off reality.

    The fact is, biological males or females cannot be ‘turned’ into the opposite sex with hormones and surgery. It is, at best, a crude approximation at likely enormous personal cost. And the idea that young people are being involved in it is very alarming.
  21. killer b

    killer b No Hateration, No Holeration. in this Dancery

    I'm not scared particularly. But yeah, this is one reason I'm interested. 'course it is.
  22. elbows

    elbows WoeTimer

    Which should be taken very seriously, but also weighed up against other things that involve young people and enormous personal cost, such as severe depression, self-image problems, self-harming, suicide. ie we have to look at the cost of inaction and non-acceptance, not just the cost of action.
    ginger_syn, nyxx, Puddy_Tat and 2 others like this.
  23. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    To be fair there were lots of fears raised about the health risks of a 'gay lifestyle' back then from lurid scare stories about anal sex to more commonly HIV and poor mental health. Also most of those who have concerns about using puberty blockers seem to have have equal concerns about purely social transition.

    I really don't know about the US, but here the number of kids given puberty blockers is tiny and most start them at the age of 15/16 only after a long period of gatekeeping and an established diagnosis of a persistent and consistent need to be their aquired gendeer. Just one in ten thousand under 18s are referred to gender identity services anually, and many will not have medical treatment. This is way way below the rate of transgender adults which suggests most trans kids are not being identified.

    Jazz doesn't appear to have any regrets. There is now approaching two decades of clinical practice of using puberty blockers with success and a growing body of evidence which supports social and in some cases medical transition for young people. Moreover patients seem happy and this is the treatment patients often want. This is why it has been adopted as a treatment all over the world, not because of some shadowy trans conspiracy but because it seems to be the best posible option when weighed against the poor outcomes and suicide risks that young trans kids face. The alternative, some form of conversion therapy, was tried for years, sometimes with horrifying results. I think it should be used with great care, and is in the UK, and that research should continue. And obviously any possible health risks from the drugs should be thoroughly examined as with all drugs. But to write off a treatment that is being used with great success to transform a lot of lives based on ideological concerns or denial that being transgender is actually 'a thing' would be unethical in my opinion .
  24. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    i found this interesting, it discusses the policy towards trans pregnancy in the UK including the fertility risks involved. one of the requirements for transitioning is that people have to know the implications for future fertility. there's loads of info about what the existing policies are about it (a lot of the time there don't seem to be any)


    this is what it says about hormone blockers:

    how many people would this apply to ie 'puberty not being advanced enough'? given the long waiting lists etc surely it can't be that many?

    i admit the stuff about fertility etc does worry me a bit but i think that its more important that the research continue than that it doesn't and people end up buying hormones and other drugs off the internet, which is what would probably happen if it was banned or almost impossible to get.
  25. FabricLiveBaby!

    FabricLiveBaby! /wɜːst tɜːf ɒn ɜːθ/

    Yeah. And I guess some of those fears have been countered with good sex education and an improvement in mental health counselling etc. So in a way people were right to be concerened about STDs, and those concernes have been alleviated with much better education about how diseases are spread and the precautions you can take. These health concerns were about diseases caused by environmental and societal factors. We're not talking about that though, were talking about factors absolutely caused by the medical intervention itself, which is not as easy to combat.

    I know a little about the US and I think the drugs are much easier to get, but I can't say I'd know the numbers. I do know that there has been a case here in the UK that were under investigation, for one doctor in particular, giving cross sex hormones, privately, to kids as young as 12 (and on further investigation was banned from practising - certainly a good thing). Personally I think even 15/16 is way too young because our identity changes so much through puberty and early adulthood. But a long period of gate keeping is a compromise.

    Of course Jazz doesn't have any regrets. Jazz is still a child. Jazz has never experienced orgasm or know what it's like to have fully developed into an adult and was diagnosed as transgender at a very young age, and has lived her entire life in front of a reality TV camera. She's had a very unusual life and I cannot imagine anyone that young will suddenly go "actually I changed my mind" with that amount of pressure behind them. What happens to her remains to be seen. I really hope her surgery is successful and that she has a happy life.

    What I do know about Lupron though is that the side effects are only just coming to the surface now, 10-20 years after they've been used. A drug whose adverse side effects coming out 10-20 years after the drug was first used for this stuff 10-20 years ago does not sound like particularly good news to me.

    I dunno man, people used to say the same things about lobotomies too. "It's perfectly safe, the patients seem happy, it's a well established method". That's not a conspiracy, it's just sometimes the medicine misses something, or indeed jumps on something. When the effects are so serious, I think extreme caution is the only way forward. No one's saying there's a conspiracy.

    I agree I think research should continue and it should be used with great care.

    I agree too health risks should be examined with drugs. I'm not writing it off as such but I think it could be argued that it's also unethical to start a treatment that, to put it nicely, is very new, highly invasive and highly experimental.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    MadeInBedlam likes this.
  26. smokedout

    smokedout criminal

    I'm not sure patients were approaching doctors in severe distress and begging for lobotomies though as is the case here. If you agree that if in some cases then this may be the best course of treatment (or the least worst) then I'm not sure we hugely disagree. It's really just a qustion of whether medical staff are making the right assessments.

    It's difficult, I was concerned when I read the boss of Mermaids took her child to Thailand for surgery at 16. I think that's probably too young, but then when you read the stories of her daughter's trauma and repeated suicide attempts, and the fact she now seems to be a well balanced and happy young woman then it's hard to say it was the wrong decision. I hope, given how sparingly this treatment is used, the Tavistock is making the right calls. It doesn't seem to me that it is being used for gender non-conforming children going through a phase, but a very small number of trans children who are in severe distress.

    And not having a go at you, but the current trend of attacking parents who are supporting their child's gender identity as child abusers, or Transgender Trend and others attempts to undermine well documented high rates of suicide and self harm amongst trans kids, or the assumption that homophobic parents are forcing lesbian and gay kids to transition is really a good example of how nasty this debate can get under the cover of just asking questions or trying to support children. These are children and parents often going through a horrendous time and making the best decisions they can under extensive medical supervision. A bit more compassion and empathy for what these children and their parents are going through would go a long way.
  27. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

  28. FabricLiveBaby!

    FabricLiveBaby! /wɜːst tɜːf ɒn ɜːθ/

    I think they might have been, actually (from what I remember, but it's worth checking). Some patients were convinced it was the only thing that could help them.

    I think the Tavistock's watchful waiting is the best approach really in America I believe the approach is somewhat different, and there are some calls from. advocacy groups to take on the model (something which I reject). I reserve the right to be :hmm: about the use of Lupron and hope that it doesn't become a scandal.
  29. frogwoman

    frogwoman лягушкая женщина

    in the article you linked it discussed people who had been given lupron to make them taller! maybe i'm naive but america's healthcare system is so screwed up, i honestly think this is the least of their worries and it seems to be a total shit show in so many different ways. maybe i'm wrong, but i have trouble imagining that the same thing would happen here.
    Pickman's model likes this.
  30. pengaleng

    pengaleng Lil' J Pengele PhD. The Angel of Sesh

    theres SHIT LOADS of people who do FUCK ALL medically because of lots of different reasons and all of this shit is just parroted basic crap the media are questionably spouting - I highly doubt that this group of people will be blind to their differences and be involved in competitive sport at a professional level.

    I bet you all think that if someones not doing hormones or surgery then theres no way they can be trans or have an opinion of themselves which doesnt fit in your generically bland box of either/or.

    has anyone got any evidence of actual athletes having a problem with trans people? Ive not heard anything.
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