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solar thermal the way to go for large-scale power generation?

two sheds said:
All they have to do is overspecify the plant and feed the additional steam into a reservoir (underground cavern looks cheapest) so it can be keep generating into the evening. The company reckons that the daily output curve of the solar plant (unlike fossil and nuclear) nearly matches the human one - most power during the day when we're active, less at night.

With some sort of a grid, you could also put the generating plants in different time zones to stagger the production. Good information in:

http://www.trec-uk.org.uk/articles/CSP_article_env_sci_oct_nov_2007.pdf

And we'd need less area of plant if we invested systematically in reducing energy waste anyway.
From your link.

A useful feature of CSP is that it is possible to store
solar heat in melted salts (such as nitrates of sodium or
potassium, or a mixture of the two) so that electricity generation
may continue through the night or on cloudy days.
This overcomes a common objection to solar power: that
it is not available when there is no sun.
I am not holding my breath on this solution a quick one line quip about 'melted salts' storing the several hundred degrees of heat needed to properly vapourize water to run a steam turbine fills me with a certain lack of faith.
 
Wilson said:
surely if they just produce hydrogen at the solar plants during the day then they can burn it at night to produce more steam for the turbines
Thermodynamics. You loose alot of energy turning water into hydrogene, compressing it and freezing it to store, then burning it. It may not even give a positive return on energy due to the huge amount needed to compress and freeze it.
 
Wouldbe - your position appears to be that solar is pointless because it doesn't work at night.
But reliance on solar alone is stupid - as part of a mix, it's fantastic for taking on the daytime load, in countries with lots of sun. (eg. USA, southern europe, africa, australia, much of asia)
 
david dissadent said:
Thermodynamics. You loose alot of energy turning water into hydrogene, compressing it and freezing it to store, then burning it. It may not even give a positive return on energy due to the huge amount needed to compress and freeze it.

it doesnt need to be compressed a great deal if its not going to be transported anywhere
 
Crispy said:
Wouldbe - your position appears to be that solar is pointless because it doesn't work at night.
Then you have misunderstood me.

I think all new houses should have solar hot water and PV built in as standard. :)
 
david dissadent said:
I am not holding my breath on this solution a quick one line quip about 'melted salts' storing the several hundred degrees of heat needed to properly vapourize water to run a steam turbine fills me with a certain lack of faith.
Alternatively drill down deep enough to find hot rocks and use geothermal energy instead.
 
love it!

More info and bold claims here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/02/2048420.htm


...Dr Diesendorf agrees.

"There's been a lot of nonsense talked about, in Australia and elsewhere, about renewable energy allegedly not being able to provide baseload power, not being able to substitute for coal," he said.

"That's never been true. It's even untrue with regard to wind power, and now with solar thermal power, it's certainly untrue."


Dr Diesendorf says the huge US investment into solar will soon make talk of clean coal and nuclear as solutions to climate change redundant.

"Basically, the solar thermal technology will be on the ground, certainly in the United States and many other countries long before so-called clean coal and nuclear power," he said.

Mr Khosla says solar power is developing rapidly and will be cheaper than either nuclear power or 'clean' coal.

"We think we can move much faster than nuclear and on an unsubsidised basis, we will be cheaper than nuclear power, and we should be cheaper than IGCC [integrated gasification combined cycle] coal-based power generation," he said.

Dr Mills says big solar plants will be able to replace nuclear and fossil fuel-fired plants in the US.

"In five years time, we'll have very large plants and I would say gigawatt-style plants already commissioned, able to run 24 hours a day and completely replace the function of nuclear and coal plants," he said.
 
On a slight tangent this video of Tim Flannery (another australian) recent talk on atmospheric pollution is well worth the hour.

We spend the hour with one of the world's leading scientists studying climate change, Tim Flannery. An Australian mammologist, palaeontologist and field zoologist, he has discovered and named more than thirty new species of mammals. He has been described as being in the league of all-time great explorers such as David Livingstone. Flannery might be best known as the author of the bestselling book "The Weather Makers: The History and Future Impact of Climate Change." Earlier this year he was named 2007 Australian of the Year. Tim Flannery recently spoke before a packed crowd at the Lensic Theater in Santa Fe New Mexico as part of "Readings and Conversations," a series sponsored by the Lannan Foundation. Today, Tim Flannery's speech on the environment, how human activity is altering the earth's climate and what we can do to save it.
 
France have been using a solar furnace for years now. Like Crispy says, cheap and low tech. Easy to use the same principle for steam turbines instead of melting stuff.

Crispy said:
Exactly, this isn't Photovoltaics, therefore it's a better option, environmentally speaking.

Even better than using steam, IMO, is using a Stirling engine
http://www.stirlingenergy.com/whatisastirlingengine.htm
fewer moving parts, saner temperatures, works across a wider range of weather conditions

You hear of the plans to use a reverse Stirling in a planned Venus rover? Wicked cool old-skool tech :)

Pumped storage is cool - anyone else been inside the Dinorwig power station in Snowdonia? In actual fact though, it uses more much energy than it produces - there isn't enough rainfall even in Snowdonia to keep the top lake filled, so they reverse the turbines at night (when electricity is cheaper) to pump water from the bottom lake to the top again. Pumped storage station like this are used because they can go from idle to full output within a matter of minutes (hence to compensate for power surges and the like) unlike, say, a coal station which can take days to get up to full power output, not because they're incredibly efficient.
 
What are the scalability options on this kind of tech? For example, if you lived somewhere that was sunny loads (say Queensland) how big would a solar furnace or thermal generator thingy have to be to generate enough energy to produce your own leccy? leave out that your house would look really weird, could you do it on roof space of say 30sqm?
 
Crispy said:
It's the way forward if you ask me. Low tech, easy to maintain, and easily upgradeable. PV is nice, but the manufacturing process is far from ecofriendly.


isn't the problem with this type of solar though, that it needs direct sunlight. Where as Photo Voltaics can use indirect. We don't get much direct sun in Northern Europe.
AFAIK

Very appropriate for some placess. Made me look up Sterling Engine when reading about this couple of months back.

I still say let's cover the Sahara. It's doing fuck all else except expanding. Well Ok apart from the instability of the region, massive cost of infrastructure, maintanence and getting the energy where it's most needed...
 
Well, one of these

300px-SolarStirlingEngine.jpg


Will do you 25kW. It's about 12m tall

I think you start getting a bad return on you investment any smaller than that.
 
sorry, scaled it wrong. It's big :) But then an 'average' house needs about 3kw, so you could pu a couple of these on a block.

But yeah, not really sunny enough here.
 
david dissadent said:
From your link.

I am not holding my breath on this solution a quick one line quip about 'melted salts' storing the several hundred degrees of heat needed to properly vapourize water to run a steam turbine fills me with a certain lack of
faith.

As an aside heard prog on R4 about the various potentials of liquid salts. Exciting stuff... Not that i understand the chemistry.
 
Crispy said:
sorry, scaled it wrong. It's big :) But then an 'average' house needs about 3kw, so you could pu a couple of these on a block.

But yeah, not really sunny enough here.

I'm thinking about Oz when Wry and I move there...possible business opp...now to find out how much such a thing would cost...
 
Totally worth it in Oz. And the new PM has his head screwed on - should be grants and all sorts.
 
The power conversion is the tricky bit. Stirling engines are neat, but they're not exactly a commodity. As for steam turbines - that's an industrial process - no hope for domestic.
 
Crispy said:
sorry, scaled it wrong. It's big :) But then an 'average' house needs about 3kw, so you could pu a couple of these on a block.

But yeah, not really sunny enough here.
Is that 3KW or 3KWh?
 
Crispy said:
Well, one of these

300px-SolarStirlingEngine.jpg


Will do you 25kW. It's about 12m tall

I think you start getting a bad return on you investment any smaller than that.

Although .... http://www.sunspot.org.uk/ed/ . I'd love to do something like that. I think it would mean moving it to point it at the sun at about 10 o'clock, 12 o'clock and 2 o'clock but I wouldn't mind that. And agreed not too much bloody use in cornwall with percentage cloud cover would just love to have one.
 
They can have tracking motors to follow the sun. Though that obviously means using some of the energy and more moving parts to go wrong.
 
Crispy said:
The power conversion is the tricky bit. Stirling engines are neat, but they're not exactly a commodity. As for steam turbines - that's an industrial process - no hope for domestic.
Which is a shame. I've been looking for a small steam turbine for a couple of years and have only been able to get a model version (which is a bloody lovely bit of engineering, though, got it off a guy in the US off e-bay). It's less than 2 inches cubed and the bloke claimed: "This turbine can either run off of steam or compressed air. It will run with less than 10 psi and will do a max of 60,000 rpm with just 50 psi. (Be careful, it will burn your fingers before your able to stop the shaft). " Not tried it with anything yet but one day, one day.

They can have small steam turbines on boats, I think, and if anyone knows where i can get a 5 kW one? Pretty please? :)

Didn't British Gas come out last year with a house system (logically enough gas fired as i remember, though :( ) using a Stirling engine?
 
david dissadent said:
Another cost is keeping the glass clean and scratch free. Over ten years in an arid region this could be a long term issue.


Are you sure this is a factor? Never heard of problems with glass windows on such small time frames.
 
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