Socialist Party (UK)

[cockneyrebel]

Hmmmmm.....

rapping even!!!

 

[crake]

Raping or rapping? cos that might affect how i view the socialist party

 

[cockneyrebel]

Would him rapping make you more or less likely to join the SP?

He also had a big clock hanging off a chain and kept shouting "what time is it".........and all the SP members in the audience were shouting "time for the NWP Daddy Nellist".......

 

[dennisr]

Apologies for comments, just in a stupid mood this evening......I'll leave to people who want a serious debate......

No need for apologies mate - your comments made me giggle. Sounds like you need to get out for a beer though pm me (...then again you may have had enough of the sauce after this eve...)

Not trying to start anything here, but am interested to hear some views on the Socialist Party, preferably drawn from experience rather than just sectarian ranting. As an unaligned leftie who is looking for a home, they are one group I haven't had many direct dealings with. Hence the interest.

My comments are completely biased crake - as a Militant/SP member for a long while. But I would say there are only two serious propositions in England/Wales - the SP or the SWP. I would argue that the SP reflects a very different tradition to the SWP in practice.

The key things would be firstly the international organisation we are part of (see the CWI website if you haven't already: http://www.socialistworld.net/ ) and also the online literature available here: http://www.socialistalternative.org/literature.html ) to get a clearer idea of our general approach. The international we are part of has played an important - but often unknown - role in the formation of COSATU in South Africa for example or the work against the dictatorships in Nigeria and more recently the role in Pakistan/Kashmir as a counterweight to fundimentalists or Sri Lanka in the wake of the tsunami or witihn the new left party in germany were we have a number of councillors. Folk in places such as Kashmir and Nigeria, for example, would not waste thier time with a bunch of left-talkers - literally risking thier lives as they have had to - if they did not feel thier comrades were serious fighters. I think our Nigerian CWI section is presently the second largest in terms of membership

And secondly, the role the Militant/SP has played in mass movements such as Liverpool (see: http://www.liverpool47.org/ ) and the poll tax and the formation of the SSP and early SA - and the results achieved from these. Whatever the differences with our organisation over this or that tactic (and i am sure you will shortly get many added to this thread) what the SP should still be credited with is that this is - an organisation that is seriously trying to engage with the class we all talk about - and turn the ideas we all talk about into something concrete.

A serious approach to the trade unions has not just led to more bods on union execs than every other left group put together I would imagine but - much more importantly (because the numbers game or simply grabbing power at the top really is not the point of what we are trying to achieve) a key role played by our members in countless tu disputes most of which are never discussed on boards such as these. That would not be possible if the SP was simply an organisation of followers and leaders without constant discussion and disagreement as soloutions are worked towards collectively.

 

[socialistsuzy]

For my own part i've always felt that the Socialist Party seems unable to come to some honest conclusions about its 'Militant' past. I asked on these boards if the SP felt that mistakes had been made in Liverpool and all we got was 'a few minor ones'. This inability to seriously consider and analyse the practice and culture of Militant is the root of the broadly sectarian nature if the SP. The 'tradition' must be defended at all costs and the competition with the other trot groups still seems to be the determining dynamic especially when it comes to relating to other lefties.

We are extremely proud of our history as the socialist party, as militant labour and as militant.

Just a few reasons on why I joined. both my parents have been fulltimers for the socialist party and one still is, as well as this 2aunts and 2uncles have also been fulltimers. this had no influence on my decision to join other than knowing that they existed and knowing about socialism as a concept. before i joined i looked into other party's, read material from other groups and so on. i also had dicussions with SP youth fulltimers and read some of the material produced. i joined about 5/6 years ago when i was 13/14 but wasn't active for a few years until the anti-war movement took off and i was organising in my school. the reason i am in the socialist party is because they have a very strong history in workers struggle, could provide me with answers to my questions, had a good balence between action and theory, a good understanding of how to raise demands transitionally, are completely democratic, etc etc. there's just my two pennies worth!
xsuzyx

ps. i totally agree with dennisr

 

[dennisr]

He also had a big clock hanging off a chain and kept shouting "what time is it".........and all the SP members in the audience were shouting "time for the NWP Daddy Nellist".......

 

[dennisr]

ps. i totally agree with dennisr

luckily you don't spell as appallingly as me though!!

 

[dennisr]

I asked on these boards if the SP felt that mistakes had been made in Liverpool and all we got was 'a few minor ones'.

What like:

Legacy of the Liverpool battle:

* 6,300 families rehoused from tenements, flats and maisonettes
* 2, 873 tenement flats demolished
* 1,315 walk-up flats demolished
* 2,086 flats/maisonettes demolished
* 4,800 houses and bungalows built
* 7,400 houses and flats improved
* 600 houses/bungalows created by ‘top-downing’ 1,315 walk-up flats
* 25 new Housing Action Areas being developed
* 6 new nursery classes built and open
* 17 Community Comprehensive Schools established following a massive re-organisation
* £10million spent on school improvements
* Five new sports centres, one with a leisure pool attached, built and open
* Two thousand additional jobs provided for in Liverpool City Council Budget
* Ten thousand people per year employed on Council’s Capital Programme
* Three new parks built
* Rents frozen for five years

 

[socialistsuzy]

What like:

Legacy of the Liverpool battle:

* 6,300 families rehoused from tenements, flats and maisonettes
* 2, 873 tenement flats demolished
* 1,315 walk-up flats demolished
* 2,086 flats/maisonettes demolished
* 4,800 houses and bungalows built
* 7,400 houses and flats improved
* 600 houses/bungalows created by ‘top-downing’ 1,315 walk-up flats
* 25 new Housing Action Areas being developed
* 6 new nursery classes built and open
* 17 Community Comprehensive Schools established following a massive re-organisation
* £10million spent on school improvements
* Five new sports centres, one with a leisure pool attached, built and open
* Two thousand additional jobs provided for in Liverpool City Council Budget
* Ten thousand people per year employed on Council’s Capital Programme
* Three new parks built
* Rents frozen for five years

exactly! as i said, we are proud of our history!

 

[treelover]

what about the 'jobs for the boys' set up though (TL i was there)

 

[dennisr]

what about the 'jobs for the boys' set up though (TL i was there)

so was i treelover - so can you clarify? I was also there after as people who had fought for the building of more council houses than every other council in britain put together etc at the time were victimised, expelled (along with the entire labour party membership in liverpool) and thier attempted criminalisation for 'crimes' they had commited in the eyes of the tory government (with the help of kinnocko - now there you can talk about a 'job for the boyo' in payment for the services he rendered in this and the miners strike). i helped do up the then militant centre and watched as the listening devices were pulled out of the wall. This was a serious battle - and the full weight of the media and state were involved in attempting hammer the spirit not just of the militants but of the entire population of liverpool.

I'll get back to you tomorrow though - time to step away from the screen

 

[soulman]

 

[bluestreak]

so can someone explain to me if i should join this lot or not? where do they stand on anarcho-liberals?

 

[neprimerimye]

And to cap it all none of these are to be confused with the Socialist Party of Great Britain founded in 1904,, which is the legally registered user of the name 'Socialist Party' for UK elections (and hence the reason why the SP (EW) use the name 'Socialist Alternative' instead).

Well yes but one must take care not to confuse the Socialist Party of Great Britain which publishes The Socialist Standard and the Socialist Party of Great Britain which publishes Socialist Studies. The latter claim that only they are the real Socialist Party founded in 1904.

 

[bluestreak]

so which socialists should i join then?

 

[Philbc03]

so which socialists should i join then?

We've set out our stall, so it's upto you.

Comradely,
Phil BC

 

[dennisr]

http://images.radcity.net/5894/484333.jpg

ok- thats the greedy, selfish tens of thousands of working people in liverpool exposed then. well, its human natue isn't it - you can't trust anyone

hatton was one person mate - one person who was hounded by the press for years after the dispute. 200 coppers spent over two years investigating him and still could not pin anything on him.

whatever illusions he may have had personally (sort of an earlier version of Galloway with his later self-publicity) he was - at the time of the dispute answerable to the people of liverpool (unlike Galloway who was not it seems answerable to respect) and he stood alongside them. And he shared the half a million fine imposed upon the councillors by the tory govenment for thier 'crime' of not setting a rate.

what the personalisation of this whole dispute in the form one imperfect person we can sit in arrogant judgement on does is detract from the mass movement that defeated the government. Not just one man or even 47 concillors (most of whom were not actual supporters of militant by the way) it also hides the real 'criminals' and the real traitors. Pseudo critics like yourself 'soul' man have always missed the point. So come on then, explain the crimes of this man to me?

how about all those 'personalities' who where then seen as on the left in other councils across the UK - the blunketts and livingstones - the ones who sold out for the sake of thier careers and left liverpool (and of course thier own people in thier own cities ...) to stand alone. if the pseudo lefts in the labour party at the time had stood up folk like you an me would not now be facing the housing crisis we do and the miners would have not had thier livelihoods and communities destroyed. How about kinnockio? how about thatcher? At the very least we can say Hatton did not sell his people out for his career.

Or how about the CP who put the final knife in (they controlled the council white-coller unions at the time in the city and refused an open discussion so the vote for all out action was narrowly lost).

I see very different enemies to you 'soul' man - but I see much bigger criminals still getting away with thier dirty business than one slightly spivvy fella in a sharp suit.

 

[nwnm]

"so can someone explain to me if i should join this lot or not?" Well, I have no desire to engage in a sectarian slanging match. I would broadly agree with the poster who said that out of far left groups the 2 main choices are the SP or the SWP - and I'm in the other lot

I would recommend that you also check out the thread on Left wing publications here.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=149093

Read widely go to meetings/demos and make your own mind up. These were my recommendations on the Left wing publications thread -

Broader Left Formations
http://www.respectcoalition.org/
http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/

Other leftish journals/websites of interest -
http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/
http://www.redpepper.org.uk/
http://www.marxists.org/
http://www.zmag.org/intro_to_znet.htm
http://www.ukwatch.net/
http://www.resistancemp3.lpi.org.uk/
http://www.marxists.de/index.htm
http://www.bookmarks.uk.com/cgi/store/bookmark.cgi
http://historybooksuk.blogspot.com/
http://www.newleftreview.org/
http://www.dkrenton.co.uk/
http://www.planetmagazine.org.uk/html/splash.htm


Socialist worker and related -
http://www.swp.org.uk/
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/
http://www.isj.org.uk/
http://www.istendency.net/
http://www.swp.org.uk/archive.php

 

[jannerboyuk]

What like:

Legacy of the Liverpool battle:

* 6,300 families rehoused from tenements, flats and maisonettes
...
* Rents frozen for five years

Yeah yeah you are confused that someone would question the unblemished history of Militant. Of course you are. Its this sort of predictable pseudo-religous response that completely illustrates my point. The tradition must be defended at all costs. Everyone loved Militant. Keep smiling.

 

[dennisr]

Yeah yeah you are confused that someone would question the unblemished history of Militant. Of course you are. Its this sort of predictable pseudo-religous response that completely illustrates my point. The tradition must be defended at all costs. Everyone loved Militant. Keep smiling.

No, there is no 'pseudo-religous' response at all that i can see, and certainly no confusion on my part (maybe you are the one who is confused here?) - simply a list of hard facts - the achievements of the council. The only thing you are 'illustrating' is an inability to answer these concrete results .

Please can you list the problems you have with any of these achievements? thanks

 

[crake]

thanks for all the responses - lots of food for thought.

cockneyrebel - took me a while to work out if you were serious or not (was a bit knackered last night in my defence)

 

[dennisr]

so can someone explain to me if i should join this lot or not? where do they stand on anarcho-liberals?

<cockney rebel being cynical mode>they think anarcho-liberals smell and should join the swp were they have a more natural home as liberals</cockney rebel being cynical mode>

 

[cockneyrebel]

SHOCK ANNOUNCEMENT:

A member of the SP in Leeds has just joined Workers Power.

How much of a blow is this to the CWI?

Rank and file members of the CWI, turn on your leaders now. I blame Dave Nellist, he should have practiced his running man more.

 

[jannerboyuk]

No, there is no 'pseudo-religous' response at all that i can see, and certainly no confusion on my part (maybe you are the one who is confused here?) - simply a list of hard facts - the achievements of the council. The only thing you are 'illustrating' is an inability to answer these concrete results .

Please can you list the problems you have with any of these achievements? thanks

What like:

Legacy of the Liverpool battle:

Did you think the confused smiley meant something else? Your response is pseudo-religous because instead of an honest appraisal of a mixed legacy all you can do is list some acheivements and pretend their are no issues for you to ponder. Like i say keep on smiling. All is fine. The irony is that of all the trot parties i'm most sympathetic to the SP but your inability to have a open and honest discussion about the role of Militant lets you down every time and reminds me of of the essential dishonesty of the trotskyist tradition in this country. Pity.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Why are you talking about Militant and the left controlling a whole city council. I've just told you a member of the SP has joined Workers Power. Get your priorities right.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

so was i treelover - so can you clarify? I was also there after as people who had fought for the building of more council houses than every other council in britain put together etc at the time were victimised, expelled (along with the entire labour party membership in liverpool) and thier attempted criminalisation for 'crimes' they had commited in the eyes of the tory government (with the help of kinnocko - now there you can talk about a 'job for the boyo' in payment for the services he rendered in this and the miners strike). i helped do up the then militant centre and watched as the listening devices were pulled out of the wall. This was a serious battle - and the full weight of the media and state were involved in attempting hammer the spirit not just of the militants but of the entire population of liverpool.

I'll get back to you tomorrow though - time to step away from the screen

Hmm. I was a member of the Labour Party in Liverpool and I was not expelled "along with the entire labour party membership in liverpool", so I don't know where you got that idea from - there was a suppression of democratic rights but not expulsion of the entire membership as far as I know. The largest group of expulsions came when Militant et al stood against Labour in elections and whilst I was against the witchhunt of political ideas, its pretty fundamental that when you join the Labour Party you are expected to support its candidates.

There are several issues about the broader Militant legacy of the 1980s Liverpool Council:

1) it was not just Militant, but the entire left and some not-so-left; in fact the Liverpool 47 included some people who were on the right wing of the national Labour Party at the time (though in today's Labour Party even witchfinder-general Peter Kilfoyle looks like a 'loony trot' by comparison).

2) it's relatively easy for councillors to spend money improving services; most councils (even the tory ones) have wish-lists of good things as long as your arm; the problem is how you pay for it - in the case of the 1980s left wing Liverpool councils it was by selling off assets and going in hock to the Swiss banks. Some councils raised rates and that was wrong (though business rates were ridiculously low and large numbers were protected by benefits, so it wasn't as bad as it sounds, though still not a strategy.) The real problem with selling assets and borrowing was that when that was insufficient the council issued the redundancy notices as a (mistaken) tactic, which demobilised and angered the workforce and solidarity movement outside Liverpool as it looked like the council was threatening the workforce rather than the government.

3) if the legacy of Militant in Liverpool was so great and self-apparent, why is it that the organisation is a shadow of its former self? Militant had a huge organisation and support - at one time there would have been more people selling Militant in Lime Street than the Liverpool Echo! The SP can't have more than a few dozen members in the city to show for that period and no-one is exactly flocking to their banner. Some of those involved in the 1980s struggle have even tried to set up rival organisations (eg the 'United Socialist Party')

 

[dennisr]

Did you think the confused smiley meant something else? Your response is pseudo-religous because instead of an honest appraisal of a mixed legacy all you can do is list some acheivements and pretend their are no issues for you to ponder... etc

The smiley - its called gentle humour - this has obviously passed you by mate. I think you are the one being dishonest here with yourself - i counterposed a list of what was achieved to your unqualified statement. if you have ACTUAL concrete critisisms about tactics, strategies, personalities or what ever why not ask them. I pretended nothing.

You cannot expect someone to answer questions/critisisms that have not been raised and then accuse that person of being 'essential(ly dishonest'. That is dishonest argument on your part as is putting your presumptions into the use of a bloody smiley

Do you want a summary of my view: Overall - we made some minor tactical errors which - with the benefit of hindsight and the priviledge of not being forced to make rapid decisions in the heat of a struggle and with a variety of different forces that have to be held together - could have been done differently - but so what???

 

[mutley]

A critique not based on the 80's

I'd agree with Dennis that SP or SWP are the only real game in town in spite of a single SP defection in Leeds.

In spite of the fact that I've got into slanging matches on here (partic with Nigel I) I have a good relationship with SP members who I know in my union, and in my City.

However my criticism would be that the SP, in any campaign that they do not control, play a 'recruiting from the sidelines' role and don't actually build the campaign.

Stop the War Coalition is a good example. The SP have someone on the steering committee, and state on their website that they support it, but even in areas where they have local strength (eg Coventry) very little is done to build it. Usually other forces have to do the work.

In the national events, the SP basically use the demos as a big pond in which to fish for members. So on the last STW national demo, they had a fair few out, all in distinctive red t-shirts, all 'working' the demo to get contacts and sell papers. Now I don't have a problem with anyone pushing their organisation on a demo, but if that is ALL they do, without any of their members carrying STW local banners, being part of the collection for STW at the end, then this is a fundamentally parasitic role.

Does this matter? In the long run yes very much. The SWP used to act in a similar way in the '80's around anti-apartheid and CND. Now, the CP and left labour networks that used to maintain those campaigns are much weaker, and the SWP has to do more of the basic donkey work to keep a broad based campaign going.

If the SWP was to dissappear, in the way that Nigel I hoped it would, then a larger SP would have to either do that work, or not bother. And I'm afraid that they would insist on a very 'red' 'workerist' anti-war movement (to take just that example). The STWC has been reasonably successful at maintaining unity between Socialists, Peace campaigners and Muslim groups. I don't think the SP's approach would have done - you'd have had several different campaigns, in the way that has happened in the US, which would weaken the movement considerably.

Similarly, I don't think that the SP's approach works in pulling more than a minute number of activists from minority communities. The danger of that can be seen in France, where you have a white left virtually unable to intervene in the riots in the Banlieus.

So my argument is that the SP are too conservative (with a small c) to actually rise to the challenge of building genuinely broad mass united fronts.

 

[dennisr]

Hmm. I was a member of the Labour Party in Liverpool and I was not expelled "along with the entire labour party membership in liverpool", so I don't know where you got that idea from - there was a suppression of democratic rights but not expulsion of the entire membership as far as I know. The largest group of expulsions came when Militant et al stood against Labour in elections and whilst I was against the witchhunt of political ideas, its pretty fundamental that when you join the Labour Party you are expected to support its candidates.

You are right - that was crude overemphesis on my part as part of a sentence about something a little more fundamental which i was replying to in a hurry. The entire party was in effect closed down by the central party and folk had to in effect re-apply. You were obviously deemed safe. The left were forced to stand against the imposed candidates - because thier right to support policies that opposed tory cuts was 'banned' by the national party. So ... in effect...

There are several issues about the broader Militant legacy of the 1980s Liverpool Council:

1) it was not just Militant, but the entire left and some not-so-left; in fact the Liverpool 47 included some people who were on the right wing of the national Labour Party at the time (though in today's Labour Party even witchfinder-general Peter Kilfoyle looks like a 'loony trot' by comparison).

agreed - as i pointed out previously on a number of occasions. If the rest of the left in the Labour Party had pushed for a clear programme against tory cuts maybe more old labout reformists would havew stood up, alongsdie the miners - what a difference that would have made ...

2) it's relatively easy for councillors to spend money improving services; most councils (even the tory ones) have wish-lists of good things as long as your arm; the problem is how you pay for it - in the case of the 1980s left wing Liverpool councils it was by selling off assets and going in hock to the Swiss banks. Some councils raised rates and that was wrong (though business rates were ridiculously low and large numbers were protected by benefits, so it wasn't as bad as it sounds, though still not a strategy.) The real problem with selling assets and borrowing was that when that was insufficient the council issued the redundancy notices as a (mistaken) tactic, which demobilised and angered the workforce and solidarity movement outside Liverpool as it looked like the council was threatening the workforce rather than the government.

You have got it all the wrong way around regarding Liverpool Labour Council though (are you sure you were active in Liverpool then fishy?). The council refused to set the imposed rate. That was the tactic that Liverpool pushed for other councils to adopt as well - they were left isolated after the other councils resorted to - as you say raising rates. The idea that the tactical issuing of redundancy notices - which was to ensure that the workforce would have still recieved a month's pay in the then likely seanario of going into an all out strike. The loss of the ballot vote among the white-collar (then led by CP and pseudo-lefts who wanted nothing more than to d othe governments dirty work for them) was a close run thing. So much for your 'demobolised and angered' workforce then - they were angered by the imposition of tory cuts which was being clearly explained and exposed to them by the council. Maybe if some of that 'solidarity' had done the same ... The borrowing of money by the Liverpool council was only after the defeat and undemocratic 'reorganisation' of the council (although in doing this they were just doing what every other council had already done ...).

3) if the legacy of Militant in Liverpool was so great and self-apparent, why is it that the organisation is a shadow of its former self? Militant had a huge organisation and support - at one time there would have been more people selling Militant in Lime Street than the Liverpool Echo! The SP can't have more than a few dozen members in the city to show for that period and no-one is exactly flocking to their banner. Some of those involved in the 1980s struggle have even tried to set up rival organisations (eg the 'United Socialist Party')

A wee thing called the overthrow of the stalinist states, the massive defeat of the miners, the wee ongoing struggles of the poll tax that continued to burn people out. People get ground down and disorientated - unless they do nothing or win ... The legacy of the militant is there in concrete not in your insinuatons. Do you understand that concept? - It is there in the list I posted earlier. And that is a legacy that plenty of ex-militants (such as the USP members) would also argue - not just members of the SP i could equally ask why the organisation you are a mouthpiece for have never had virtually any members anywhere??? - but that would be equally pointless (or missing the point ...)

 

[dennisr]

...Similarly, I don't think that the SP's approach works in pulling more than a minute number of activists from minority communities. The danger of that can be seen in France, where you have a white left virtually unable to intervene in the riots in the Banlieus ...

mutley's points actually show the very different approach of the two organisations. The SP is generally accused of being 'workerist'. It would argue that it is more useful in examples like that qouted above to raise socialist solutions that unite people across other divisions.

That is why the french section of the CWi, (including its large non-white membership, of course) was actually able to interviene in the events mentioned in france as it had previously in the sans-papier campaigns (when it was regularly asked to steward sans-papier demonstrations by the self-organised groups).

Historically the LPYS and Militant had a large black and asian membership and it was a supporter of Militant who was the first black LP nec member (as LPYS rep on the labout nec). Later there was the activity around Panther against the BNP hq in welling were hundreds of militant black youth were mobilised alongside other folk.

I would argue that all of this was precicely the result of a unifying class approach rather than any other appraoch - after all this is the unifying condition that most folk have in common. That is not to ignore other forms oppression takes but to prioritise where ever possible a sence of common struggle that unifies