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Socialism without the masses.

The only hope for Socialism in the UK is tbaldwin?

  • tbaldwin is great,we all love him....

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • tbaldwin is an evil bastard who should be shot..

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • who is tbaldwin?

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
ViolentPanda said:
Thanks for taking the trouble to post that, but that hardly quantifies your position, does it?

As I said earlier "Without defining what you mean by these terms you make it impossible for people to give you reasoned replies."
How would you extend democracy?
In what way would you massively re-distribute wealth and power?
For what and with what would you reparate developing nations?
Which anti-social crimes would you punish more severely, and why?
How would you "attack the class system", and exactly which defenders of privilege would you go after?

Slogans are fine, but without any substance behind them that's all they'll ever be; slogans.

1 Election of all Judges,Council officials on pay of over £50,000.
A second chamber elected by PR. For a start.

2 Very difficult but to start with you would have to find ways of making the tax system more fool proof and gradually increase taxes on those who can afford more.

3 For taking any of their skilled workers today and the ongoing way the west treats the developing world.
Im with Gordon Brown in wanting to see more money go to these countries..

4 Anti Social Crimes like mugging and rape etc. I would like to bring back the stocks but short of that change the law on rape to ensure more rapists are convicted and longer and tougher sentences for muggers and child molesters etc.

5 Ending all free H/E for x private/public school pupils.
I would go after anybody who wants to see more money for Private education or H/E as opposed to universal education.
And i would want to see steps taken to curb the powers of Judges Lawyers etc.

These answers are neccesarily limited, to answer any of them would be a seperate thread.
 
tbaldwin said:
1 Election of all Judges,Council officials on pay of over £50,000.

5 Ending all free H/E for x private/public school pupils.
I would go after anybody who wants to see more money for Private education or H/E as opposed to universal education.
And i would want to see steps taken to curb the powers of Judges Lawyers etc.

So you don't have any fundamental problem with anyone being paid over 50k?

And you would "go after" anyone who wanted more money for private education (or Higher Education- so student loans are ok, yeah?), but you don't challenge the existence of private education institutions as such...?

Socialist my arse!
 
Pigeon said:
So you don't have any fundamental problem with anyone being paid over 50k?

And you would "go after" anyone who wanted more money for private education (or Higher Education- so student loans are ok, yeah?), but you don't challenge the existence of private education institutions as such...?

Socialist my arse!


1 I didnt say that.
2 I would end charitable status for public schools. That would raise over £2 billion which could be put into education for all,including FE.
3 I cant believe you think Socialism has anything to do with your arse.
 
There are issues with the criminal justice system. But election of judges? Like in America? Really socialist.

You can imagine the campaigns: "I'll string em up higher than you", "Stop the nasty black men injecting reefers in your toddlers playgroup" etc etc
 
Isambard said:
There are issues with the criminal justice system. But election of judges? Like in America? Really socialist.

You can imagine the campaigns: "I'll string em up higher than you", "Stop the nasty black men injecting reefers in your toddlers playgroup" etc etc


This post kind of proves my point about how people seem to believe in a kind of "socialism from above"
Isamabard at least your being honest you really dont believe in ordinary people having control.
 
tbaldwin said:
Matt, the not ranting bit may prove difficult...

I would say that the vast majority of people on the left are openly hostile to extending democracy. Not just in their own organisations. (Democratic Centralism etc) but in wider society.

Is the any proof of this please?

They are openly hostile to the views of the vast majority of people on issues like Crime and Immigration. (They are deeply reactionary on both issues)

They are not reactionary. You just don't agree with them.

What has suprised me on U75 is just how many people seem to hold Roy Hattersley type views. A paternal view of Socialism that does not go too far.
It stops well short of ordinary people having control of their lives.

I don't understand what you mean. Marxists and anarchists want people to be totally in control of their own lives, through participatory democracy, rather than representative democracy.

For me Socialism can only come about with the will of the majority. But the establishment left from the Guardian types to the few people like you in far left organisations are opposed to the will of majority.

:confused: Because our viewpoint on immigration is a minority viewpoint?

The deeply reactionary establishment left view is that people are not intelligent for genuine socialism and that the best they can get is a benevolent form that will curb their ignorant and hateful ways.

You are making a lot of bold statements, but aren't backing anything up. Please provide some evidence.
 
tbaldwin said:
1 Election of all Judges,Council officials on pay of over £50,000.
The problem with electing judges is that you're still going to be drawing your "source material" from the same limited pool of legally-qualified people, which means you won't actually change anything except judicial tenure, which then means you remove a motivation for people to take that next step up the legal system.
You'd have to totally re-design the entire legal system t accomodate election of judges, and while wholesale reform of the system is a good idea, you'd have to explore the repercussions first.

As for executive-level council officers being elected, I've no problem whatsoever with either doing that or employing them only on short-term and performance related contracts. That way, no savings of public money, no bonus.
A second chamber elected by PR. For a start.
Agreed, and then the HoC as well.
2 Very difficult but to start with you would have to find ways of making the tax system more fool proof and gradually increase taxes on those who can afford more.
Progressive taxation? Fair enough, except no government would buy it because their mates in the city would tell them it was a "bad thing" (it isn't, of course, it's a "good thing", but business doesn't like having to pay for anything. "Render unto Caesar" and all that.
Wealth (IMHO) really isn't the point though. The point is that it's power that needs to be re-distributed, and not power of the type that people are offered now, the whole phony "empowerment" spiel, but something that allows communities to (if they so wish) set the priorities for the funding of their neighbourhood, that allows individuals to question (and expect a proper answer from) their elected officials, a system that gives individuals and communities the power to hold public officials (great or small) to account and that institutes punitive measures if it can be shown that such officials have acted outside the expressed interests of their "constituentz".
Of course, a system like this would have to be based around compulsory voting, or "interest groups" would be able to exert untoward influence.
3 For taking any of their skilled workers today and the ongoing way the west treats the developing world.
In which case, to be pedantic, you're not talking about "reparations", you're talking about "restitution", compensation for depriving a body of a usable resource.
The problem with doing this is where would the money go? As far as I can see it'd go to those governments in the "developing world" who are directly complicit with some of the wests' more egregious rip-offs off their human resources.
Im with Gordon Brown in wanting to see more money go to these countries..
The problem (apart from what I've outlined above) is that DfID is looking at "tied aid" as a way of "helping", but all "tied aid" really does is give certain industrial sectors (agriculture, construction etc) the opportunity to either offload surplus production or garner work from the countries being "aided".
It's what the Americans do and it doesn't do the "aided" countries much good in terms of assisting them toward an aid-free existence.
Now if it were money "ring-fenced" for particular mutually beneficiall projects that's fine.
4 Anti Social Crimes like mugging and rape etc. I would like to bring back the stocks but short of that change the law on rape to ensure more rapists are convicted and longer and tougher sentences for muggers and child molesters etc.
Sorry, but they're not (under current legal definitions IIRC) "anti-social crimes", they're "crimes against the person".
As for punitive approaches, do a bit of research; it doesn't discourage re-offence. It might make you feel a warm glow of satisfaction, but it does bugger all to prevent the person re-offending on release, and any actual changes in law need to be thoroughly legislated first, otherwise you just leave big loopholes through which your rapists and muggers will jump.
Seems to me that rather than thinking things through "from the ground up" (why does the crime happen, what can be done to prevent it happening), you're attempting to impose solutions "from above" (give a longer sentence and that "warehouses" a single offender for longer), the very thing you're accusing other people of.
5 Ending all free H/E for x private/public school pupils.
I would go after anybody who wants to see more money for Private education or H/E as opposed to universal education.
I'd like to see more money to all sectors of education, but I'd also take into account the existing private resources of educational institutions when alloting funding. So, if a school or college has a charitable trust worth millions of pounds, the interest on that capital (premised on a decent market rate) should be deducted from any funding. If the interest exceeds what the funding amount would have been, then the excess should be removed as "taxation" and re-distributed to other educational institutions.
And i would want to see steps taken to curb the powers of Judges Lawyers etc.
Lawyers don't have any power, except their grasp of the law of the land, and judges only have power as part of an institution of government. You're aiming at the wrong targets imho. You should be looking at why and how those institutions have gained and held onto power for the advantage of the privileged, not just pointing the finger at the people the power is manifested through.
 
tbaldwin said:
I am for.
An Extension of Democracy.
A Massive Redistribution of wealth and power.
Reparations to Developing Countries.
Tougher punishment for anti social crime.
Attacking the Class system and all those who defend the privelleges in the Criminal Justice System and Education etc.
None of which makes you a socialist,.
 
tbaldwin said:
Isamabard at least your being honest you really dont believe in ordinary people having control.

WHERE THE FUCK DID I DAY THAT? :mad:

I pointed out that electing judges would have repercussions.
Certainly wthin the current framework I wouldn't want to see judges elected becuase it would simply create a downward spiral of tabloid populism.
 
that dreary old Hampstead liberal, Chuck Marx used to go on about revolution being necessary for the working-class to rid our minds of the 'muck of ages' - to actually live the experience of transforming our society ourselves, and by doing so realise the possibilities that human endeavour and creativity can fulfill. A revolution, he said, was necessary to push us beyond our narrow world views and to break down the false divisions between workers, be they divisions of colour, gender, or craft.

Without that experience of revolution peoples' views are clouded by the limitations of capitalism, the belief that no other alternative is really possible, that this is all there is. Hence we struggle all too often over the scraps from their table, argue about who gets what sized slice of the cake, rather than why the cake can't be bigger in the first place.

Capitalism is unique in the history of class society in that for the first time it provides enough for all to live on. It's only when we achieve that state that we can meaningfully talk about socialism, about an equal division of wealth and power between all. But we don't actually have that situation in our daily lives now, most workers don't get enough to live securely on. Hence, most workers, especially given the piss poor state of the left and the workers movement, tend to conservative (note capitalisation) values, in some cases positively reactionary ones. They are, of course, absolutely rational from an individual perspective, and completely understandable. But it aint socialism, of any kind. Certainly not one based upon people taking control of their own lives.
 
Liberals like VP,Isamabard,Red Squirrel Bellboid etc etc dont trust ordinary people to be in control.
And i dont trust an enlightened elite to be in power. That is the essential difference between their version of Socialism and mine.
 
tbaldwin said:
That is the essential difference between their version of Socialism and mine.

There y'go! Pages and pages later, what do we get?

"tbaldwin=good=socialist

everyoneelse=bad=liberal".
 
tbaldwin said:
Liberals like VP,Isamabard,Red Squirrel Bellboid etc etc dont trust ordinary people to be in control.
And i dont trust an enlightened elite to be in power. That is the essential difference between their version of Socialism and mine.

You have never, ever, convinced me of this. Because you've never proved it, or provided evidence that this is the case.
 
tbaldwin said:
Liberals like VP,Isamabard,Red Squirrel Bellboid etc etc dont trust ordinary people to be in control.
And i dont trust an enlightened elite to be in power. That is the essential difference between their version of Socialism and mine.
See, this is why everyone respects you so much balders. Your blatant lies about peoples positions. do you think everyone is as sstupid as you?

Silly question, you obviously do.

Everything you have written on these threads shows up the lie in your statements - you do want an enlightened elite in power, as long as it agree's with you. Because you are the working-class personified.

Your piss poor set of reforms would change virtually nothing, it certainly wouldn't challenge capital in any way shape or form, just finding other ways to prop it up.
 
Pigeon.
The truth is people like you believe that ordinary people are reactionary because of the "ruling ideas being those of the ruling classes" I think your wrong and think that if you believe stuff like that, at best your a liberal.
 
tbaldwin said:
Pigeon.
The truth is people like you believe that ordinary people are reactionary because of the "ruling ideas being those of the ruling classes" I think your wrong and think that if you believe stuff like that, at best your a liberal.
so you think Marx was a liberal?
 
mattkidd12 said:
You have never, ever, convinced me of this. Because you've never proved it, or provided evidence that this is the case.


The evidence is constantly provided by their arguements. They are reactionaries who think the working class need strong leaders (people who hold their views) to lead them to the promised land.
 
belboid said:
so you think Marx was a liberal?

Not sure.
"the emancipation of the working class is a job for the working class themselves" is a weird thing for a liberal to say but they quite often come out with weird stuff.
But im really not that interested in Marx to be honest.
 
tbaldwin said:
Not sure.
"the emancipation of the working class is a job for the working class themselves" is a weird thing for a liberal to say but they quite often come out with weird stuff.
But im really not that interested in Marx to be honest.
No, attempting to put your thoughts and theories into a coherent system of thought clearly holds no interest for you.

It's why you fall in thrall before reacrtionary leaders like brown and Blunkett.
 
tbaldwin said:
The evidence is constantly provided by their arguements. They are reactionaries who think the working class need strong leaders (people who hold their views) to lead them to the promised land.

Provide me with evidence please. Go on, just for me.
 
tbaldwin said:
Pigeon.
The truth is people like you believe that ordinary people are reactionary because of the "ruling ideas being those of the ruling classes" I think your wrong and think that if you believe stuff like that, at best your a liberal.


Um, where have I said anything about "ordinary people" being reactionary? A quote, if you will? I've engaged with your arguments. I was unaware that you had been elected the voice of the "ordinary people". When did this happen? Why was I not allowed the vote? Have you "extended democracy" to include everyone but me?? :eek:

And I have no problem with you thinking I'm a liberal. You can think I'm Emperor Nero, for all I care. Given that you blatantly don't know what such terms as "liberal" or "socialist" actually mean, your opinion on my political perspective is, at best, irrelevant.
 
tbaldwin said:
They are reactionaries who think the working class need strong leaders (people who hold their views) to lead them to the promised land.

You DO do Doublethink don't you tbaldwin. :D
You place the opposite of the truth on here and expect people to believe it.
 
belboid said:
No, attempting to put your thoughts and theories into a coherent system of thought clearly holds no interest for you.

It's why you fall in thrall before reacrtionary leaders like brown and Blunkett.


No drawing ideas from privelleged people who died years and years ago holds little appeal.
That may make my views less coherent in your view but i would say a big problem for the left in the uk is they are lost in academic arguements that hold little interest for most people.
 
mattkidd12 said:
Provide me with evidence please. Go on, just for me.

matt your in the SWP.

How do you think they reflect the views of the majority of people on Crime or Immigration?
Unlike most of the people on here the SWp are at least honest in saying they believe in a vanguard. But most Libertarian Socialists and Anarchists hold preety much the same views.

The evidence you really need to look at, is just how insignificant the support the left has.
 
tbaldwin said:
That may make my views less coherent in your view but i would say a big problem for the left in the uk is they are lost in academic arguements that hold little interest for most people.

Oh, you speaking for "most people" again?

Good thing you're not an elitist. :rolleyes:
 
Isambard said:
There are issues with the criminal justice system. But election of judges? Like in America? Really socialist.

You can imagine the campaigns: "I'll string em up higher than you", "Stop the nasty black men injecting reefers in your toddlers playgroup" etc etc


Isamabard,
Nothing could sum up better the views of reactionary liberals than this load of wank you posted earlier.
 
tbaldwin said:
matt your in the SWP.

How do you think they reflect the views of the majority of people on Crime or Immigration?
Unlike most of the people on here the SWp are at least honest in saying they believe in a vanguard. But most Libertarian Socialists and Anarchists hold preety much the same views.

The evidence you really need to look at, is just how insignificant the support the left has.

Just because you hold a minority position, doesn't mean you are "openly hostile" to more democracy, and all those other ludicrous claims you made.
 
mattkidd12 said:
Just because you hold a minority position, doesn't mean you are "openly hostile" to more democracy, and all those other ludicrous claims you made.


No it doesnt neccesarily follow that because you hold a minority position on a subject that you let that overrule any idea of democratic control.
But most people on the left have no faith in the idea of ordinary people being in control.
Not too sure what ludicrous claims you are referring to?
 
tbaldwin said:
No it doesnt neccesarily follow that because you hold a minority position on a subject that you let that overrule any idea of democratic control.
But most people on the left have no faith in the idea of ordinary people being in control.
Not too sure what ludicrous claims you are referring to?

"But most people on the left have no faith in the idea of ordinary people being in control."

That one, for starters.
 
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