Socialism without the masses.

[ViolentPanda]

Totally agree with most of your post and thought I'd just add my own cynical comment o the last bit

...moreover, they seem tragicomically unaware that you have to see through the eyes of the unconverted, and hear through their eyes, and stand in their shoes, before you can hope to win their minds.

IMVHO tbaldwin has a fervent belief that he, out of all the posters on Urban, is the only person who "qualifies" as being one who sees and hears through those senses etc.
The fact that many urbanites are working class, live in social housing, and are socialist but not "New Labour" appears to escape him.

Anyone more articulate than he is, or who differs from his narrow ideology is immediately classed as "middle class", "trendy", or another of the many names he likes to call people.

 

[tbaldwin]

Totally agree with most of your post and thought I'd just add my own cynical comment o the last bit

IMVHO tbaldwin has a fervent belief that he, out of all the posters on Urban, is the only person who "qualifies" as being one who sees and hears through those senses etc.
The fact that many urbanites are working class, live in social housing, and are socialist but not "New Labour" appears to escape him.

Anyone more articulate than he is, or who differs from his narrow ideology is immediately classed as "middle class", "trendy", or another of the many names he likes to call people.

The ruling (dominant)ideas on the trendy left are those of the privelleged and out of touch. It has something to do with where those views come from.
What class were most of the people who controlled the left for years?, what class are the left wing intellectualls?. The ideology of the left in the UK reflcts the origins of its leaders.

 

[Streathamite]

I think, tbaldwin, you have decided that the people you meet here are all edumacated, m/class intellectual professional types, simply because that's how you see yer average SWP paper-flogger,
With many, but not all cases of that lot, you'd be right - the RESPECT paper-seller at sydenham station has the poshest voice of any socialist I've ever met.
But not ALL are like that. and the SWP (I use them as an example, simply because they are one of the most organised and vigorous left activist sects), are hardly representative of EVERYONE with left wing views
And you've kinda put horse B4 cart, in that because you've decided that all 'lefties' are preachy m/c elitists, it therefore means their views have no connection to 'ordinary' people's opinions, and that they therefore don't listen to the majority, and that their views are invalid, and cannot represent 'true' socialism by definition.
the problem with this is that it neglects to prove the starting point of that argument first, it assumes an exclusive, mystical understanding of that 'majority opinion, and it fails to see how the natural consequence of human difference is that there is no inert bloc of 'majority opinion' anymore than there is one of 'leftie opinion'.

 

[butchersapron]

The ruling (dominant)ideas on the trendy left are those of the privelleged and out of touch. It has something to do with where those views come from.
What class were most of the people who controlled the left for years?, what class are the left wing intellectualls?. The ideology of the left in the UK reflcts the origins of its leaders.

And the Labour Party? It's ideology must therefore also reflect the background of it's leaders yes?

(Yeah, it was for the wrong reasons)

 

[redsquirrel]

The ruling (dominant)ideas on the trendy left are those of the privelleged and out of touch. It has something to do with where those views come from.
What class were most of the people who controlled the left for years?, what class are the left wing intellectualls?. The ideology of the left in the UK reflcts the origins of its leaders.

And yet you still support New Labour.

 

[tbaldwin]

And the Labour Party? It's ideology must therefore also reflect the background of it's leaders yes?

(Yeah, it was for the wrong reasons)

Personally i would not have allowed Blair to stand as an MP let alone have him as leader of the LP.
There are far too many x public school boys in Parliament and Lawyers...


Of course the LPs ideology reflects its history and where its leaders come from.
But at least the LP have done some good things unlike most of their critics who have preety much the same politics when it comes right down to it.
And that is Socialism from above...

 

[tbaldwin]

And yet you still support New Labour.

Look id probably support you against Michael Howard but that doesnt make me your biggest fan.
But given a choice id choose you over Tory scum er. just.

 

[butchersapron]

W/c tory scum - from a council estate? And thus in contact with the needs of the w/c.

 

[Isambard]

But at least the LP have done some good things

Ok, give you the NHS 60 years ago. The LP in its present form wouldn't have supported the introduction of a universal welfare state.

But what have the posters on this thread or their politics "done" that equals "socialism from above" ?

 

[Streathamite]

edit; wrt to BAs last post
Like a certain current challenger for the leadership of the conservative party, mayhap...

 

[ViolentPanda]

The ruling (dominant)ideas on the trendy left are those of the privelleged and out of touch. It has something to do with where those views come from.

Which does nothing to illustrate what you believe these views are, does it?
bit less pointless name-calling and a bit more substance please.

What class were most of the people who controlled the left for years?,
what class are the left wing intellectualls?. The ideology of the left in the UK reflcts the origins of its leaders.

Don't you mean "what class are the people who control the left?", and if that is what you mean, then what do you mean by "the left"? Which of the different ideologies of "leftism" do you include or exclude"?

Without defining what you mean by these terms you make it impossible for people to give you reasoned replies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But what have the posters on this thread or their politics "done" that equals "socialism from above" ?

I think it's just another catch-all slogan to throw at anyone who argues with him, iyswim.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

How can you catch it and throw it?

 

[belboid]

surely you must catch it before you can throw it?

 

[butchersapron]

You didn't watch the ashes then Donna? One action follows the other (ideally).

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Unless you're Herschelle Gibbs.

 

[butchersapron]

Too late, i ran through tens of names, all involved in thes ahses - one SA born England Player in particular that would have been better than that...(ideally)

 

[mk12]

tbaldwin: without ranting on about the "class" of members of the far-left, could you please tell me how Marxists and anarchists believe in "socialism from above", as opposed to you?

 

[fishfingerer]

Elke Reinke has said there was an unreal quality about her first day in Germany's parliament, the Bundestag.

A month ago she was supplementing her unemployment benefit by selling postcards for one euro (£0.68) an hour.

She had been jobless for 15 years, ever since German reunification.

And she entered politics via the mass protests last summer against government reforms which cut welfare payments for the long term unemployed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4354142.stm

Lefties should be prohibited from attempting to participate in the sham democratic process until they can fulfil the criteria above obviously.

 

[audiotech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4354142.stm

Lefties should be prohibited from attempting to participate in the sham democratic process until they can fulfil the criteria above obviously.

I was out of work for 13 years.

I sold what I could to survive.

And I've been on a lot of protests in my time (including one last week).

Do I pass?

 

[Isambard]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4354142.stm

Pity the majority of the leadership of her party are reformist social democrats and union bureaucrats who had a dent in the careeer under Schröder coupled with stalinists and regionalist polit-barons of the east of Germany. Coupled of course with a track record of cutting public services in coalition with the the SPD (City-Sate of Berlin) and a readiness to scrape into the racism barrel to vin votes: One of their senior members was supposed to speak at a "Home and fatherland" conference with a far right student organisation in Dresden last week.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Can Socialism ever exist without popular support ? And do the people on here who think of themselves as socialists think they can build popular support on the basis of their views?.

Socialism does exist, in ways more now than it ever has done in this Country. The problem is the fact that we have a two tier Party system that does not represent the people that they should.

Our "democracy" is a total fake. MPs are more motivated by their directorships than by the people who elected them, and it has never been that much different in the past. And we can do very little about it, especially as our Prime Minister is giving his position even more power, and taking away more from the people who are paying him to govern.

The fact is that Democracy does not exist in the UK. We are governed by the banks who we do not elect; dictated to by Europe who most of us want to leave us alone; given rules by Judges and Police cheifs who are picked by unelected select commitees; Governed second hand by a House of Lords full of people hand picked, through Edward 1st style Feudalism, by Tony Blair. The only real power people have in this Country is to vote for two Parties who lie to them about what will happen if we vote for more independant candidates. And of course Councils, but no one really believes that Councils hold any serious power other than to manage orders made by Parliament - PPP on the Underground prooves that.

The people are now told that if Parliament does not take the most Ultimate of powers, that we will all die tomorrow in bomb blasts on trains, so we lose our right to protest, and the Government gains more rights to cling onto power for as long as they like.

As an old saying goes: If democracy really ever changed anything, the Government would ban it. Well they don't really need to, coz it aint there to start off with.

 

[redsquirrel]

Socialism does exist, in ways more now than it ever has done in this Country.

What ways are these?

 

[Pigeon]

Which does nothing to illustrate what you believe these views are, does it?
bit less pointless name-calling and a bit more substance please.

Think you're missing the point: in baldwinworld, name calling IS substance. So "socialist" has no substantial meaning other than "good" (ie- like tbaldwin).Similarly, "liberal" simply means "bad"- ie like anyone who disagrees with tbaldwin.

Quite why a thread accusing others of wanting to impose "socialism from above" started up by a lad who has elsewhere described his "socialist" utopia as some sort of worldwide benevolent corporate fiefdom is apparently being taken seriously is utterly beyond me.

But then again, I'm a Hampstead class warrior who holds the views of the working class in contempt. Or so I've heard.

 

[tbaldwin]

tbaldwin: without ranting on about the "class" of members of the far-left, could you please tell me how Marxists and anarchists believe in "socialism from above", as opposed to you?

Matt, the not ranting bit may prove difficult...

I would say that the vast majority of people on the left are openly hostile to extending democracy. Not just in their own organisations. (Democratic Centralism etc) but in wider society.
They are openly hostile to the views of the vast majority of people on issues like Crime and Immigration. (They are deeply reactionary on both issues)

What has suprised me on U75 is just how many people seem to hold Roy Hattersley type views. A paternal view of Socialism that does not go too far.
It stops well short of ordinary people having control of their lives.

For me Socialism can only come about with the will of the majority. But the establishment left from the Guardian types to the few people like you in far left organisations are opposed to the will of majority.

The deeply reactionary establishment left view is that people are not intelligent for genuine socialism and that the best they can get is a benevolent form that will curb their ignorant and hateful ways.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Think you're missing the point: in baldwinworld, name calling IS substance. So "socialist" has no substantial meaning other than "good" (ie- like tbaldwin).Similarly, "liberal" simply means "bad"- ie like anyone who disagrees with tbaldwin.

Well, not so much "missing the point" as attempting to illustrate to "the worlds' greatest socialist" that his slogan-heavy sub-Daily Mail tabloidese has about as much substance as anything Dave Spart ever spouted in "Private Eye". The only thing missing is over-use of the word "totally".

Quite why a thread accusing others of wanting to impose "socialism from above" started up by a lad who has elsewhere described his "socialist" utopia as some sort of worldwide benevolent corporate fiefdom is apparently being taken seriously is utterly beyond me.

I'm not sure that too many people are taking tbaldwin's input seriously, but it is a reasonable subject or debate sans the nationalist "socialism" he brings to the table.

But then again, I'm a Hampstead class warrior who holds the views of the working class in contempt. Or so I've heard.

Look at it this way, a lot of people, when they call people names in these fora, do so via tthe expressed views of the person they're attacking; that's legitimate.
Balders bases his insults on his perception of your political views, based entirely on the fact that you don't agree with him; that's childish.

I'm not prepared to take him seriously until he actually "sits down" and quantifies his "socialism" without reference to Richard Littlejohn-lite insults and pointless sloganeering. He keeps telling us what he's against, but we know very little about what he is for.

 

[tbaldwin]

Balders bases his insults on his perception of your political views, based entirely on the fact that you don't agree with him; that's childish.

I'm not prepared to take him seriously until he actually "sits down" and quantifies his "socialism" without reference to Richard Littlejohn-lite insults and pointless sloganeering. He keeps telling us what he's against, but we know very little about what he is for.

I am for.
An Extension of Democracy.
A Massive Redistribution of wealth and power.
Reparations to Developing Countries.
Tougher punishment for anti social crime.
Attacking the Class system and all those who defend the privelleges in the Criminal Justice System and Education etc.

 

[belboid]

Attacking the Class system and all those who defend the privelleges in the Criminal Justice System and Education etc.

that means you should attack yourself then!

wey hey!

 

[Isambard]

How democratic is the Labour party tbaldwin?

“Roy Hattersley type views” on Urban75 surprise you?
If I was asked to name the first poster that springs to mind on the right of the labour monement with a belief in a “benevolent” capitalism,
guess who I’d name………

Perhaps you’d like to point out where ANY poster has claimed that the majority are “not intelligent enough for genuine socialism”.
But no you can’t, can you.

That some on the left have different ideas than those pumped out by the ruling class is surely its reason for existence. Or do we have to do a Tony Blair Doublethink routine?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am for.
An Extension of Democracy.
A Massive Redistribution of wealth and power.
Reparations to Developing Countries.
Tougher punishment for anti social crime.
Attacking the Class system and all those who defend the privelleges in the Criminal Justice System and Education etc.

Thanks for taking the trouble to post that, but that hardly quantifies your position, does it?

As I said earlier "Without defining what you mean by these terms you make it impossible for people to give you reasoned replies."
How would you extend democracy?
In what way would you massively re-distribute wealth and power?
For what and with what would you reparate developing nations?
Which anti-social crimes would you punish more severely, and why?
How would you "attack the class system", and exactly which defenders of privilege would you go after?

Slogans are fine, but without any substance behind them that's all they'll ever be; slogans.