Socialism 2005

[revol68]

Not having any history texts books in front of me and being too lazy to look up stats on the internet I don't really know what the numbers of volunteers for the International Brigades were, but I got the impression that they made up the majority. Communism and Socialism had more sway than Anacho-Syndiclism, or am I wrong in this assesment as well.

Are you saying that the POUM and the CNT had a larger majority and support than less revolutionary elements within the movement. If this is the case how did they lose power to the Communists. Perhaps if they had taken the Democratic processes more seriously the outcome would not have been so catastrophic for them!

actually anarcho syndicalism swamped the communists in size and the international brigades were a minority. of course the history told outside of spain is one of democracy versus fascism, a war fought by poets and intellectuals from all over the world. A very inaccurate narrative.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

hmm actually the network of socialist alliances was anarchistic in many ways - it had a loose federal structure, and some of the affilliates at least at first were opposed to elections (leicester radical alliance springs to mind)

it wasnt anarchist but i think it's fair to describe the NNSA as being anarchistic, sharing some traits with anarchism

sorry comrade

Yeah I only said 'anarchistic' as in multidirectional and unformed in its organisation and politics. I didn't mean to compare it to anarcho-syndicalism which I respect as a legitimate radical political view though disagree with some fundamental tenets.

I did once vote for the Anarchist Association candidates in Student Union elections you know (and they won!). But they got disbanded for overspending their budget and reformed as the Revolutionary Anarchist Club, in an amusing play on abbreviations! For President though I voted for the Socialist Society candidate who joined the IMG and introduced me to them

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Socialist Society candidate who joined the IMG and introduced me to them

Try not to hold a grudge.

 

[rednblack]

What of Hackney Solidarity Groups' joining and withdrawing from the IWCA?

that never happened

anyway nigel what about your association with rose noir? or involvement with DAM, SLP, SA, attempt to join RA/AFA what group is next on your list? SP?
and what groups have i left out?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

that never happened

anyway nigel what about your association with rose noir? or involvement with DAM, SLP, SA, attempt to join RA/AFA what group is next on your list? SP?
and what groups have i left out?

Workers Power have a few vacancies at the moment and there may be a new mass party of the working class.

 

[drewish]

In a (probably vain) attempt to get back to the point of the forum . . .

To qoute Tony the Tiger, Socialism 2005 was Grrrreattt!

Tony Mulhearn led an excellent discussion regarding the Liverpool 47, and the lessons of that struggle which we can draw today - namely the mainstream parties will always sell out and that we stood firm.

I also enjoyed Joe Higgins's speech about the Gama Construction workers in Ireland - we had discovered the firm the largely Turkish workforce were working for was paying all their overtime and much of their wages into a secret account in Holland. Through strike action, they recovered the cash owed and the community came out to cheer them on. (Illustrating a point about racism, that it is in all our interests to unite against the common enemy - cpaitalism, and that campiagns can unite people across religious / racial divides).

Other people from Leicester branch went to the debate between the Greens and ourselves, which was apprently quite heated. It changed the mind of one, who said that not only do we need to be "red to be green", we also need to be "green to be red". I went on to Pete Dickinson's lead off on the coming environmental crises facing the planet.

It seemed to me that there were 800 or so people there at the big rally (the hall held 1000, and it was pretty full). Last year's rally hosted around 400 I think.

Finally, the rallying cry at the end was the need to build a new mass party of the working class.

www.our-party.org.uk

An exciting and inspiring experience.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Workers Power have a few vacancies at the moment and there may be a new mass party of the working class.

2 hours and one post later..........

Finally, the rallying cry at the end was the need to build a new mass party of the working class.

You wait for years and all of a sudden.

 

[durruti02]

Not having any history texts books in front of me and being too lazy to look up stats on the internet I don't really know what the numbers of volunteers for the International Brigades were, but I got the impression that they made up the majority. Communism and Socialism had more sway than Anacho-Syndiclism, or am I wrong in this assesment as well.

Are you saying that the POUM and the CNT had a larger majority and support than less revolutionary elements within the movement. If this is the case how did they lose power to the Communists. Perhaps if they had taken the Democratic processes more seriously the outcome would not have been so catastrophic for them!

as butchers says !!!!!!!!!!!

the poum were interesting but tiny and as trots received hardly any international funding
the CNT were massive .. hundreds of thousends .. and also received tiny international funding

the communist party started small but attracted the right wing and middle ground as the revolution stalled, faced with the massive nationalist/capitalist offensive AND critically were banked rolled by the ussr .. money and weapons .. which they used to attack the trots and @'s while these were fighting for the revolution/fighting fascism ..

 

[belboid]

the poum were interesting but tiny and as trots received hardly any international funding

the poum weren't trots. tho they theoretically held to a position of permanent revolution, they didn't carry it through in practise.

 

[rebel warrior]

The CNWP = its Grrrreeeeat

Yep, it looks like www.cnwp.org.uk is on its way, possibly sponsored by Kelloggs.

 

[gilhyle]

the poum weren't trots. tho they theoretically held to a position of permanent revolution, they didn't carry it through in practise.

It is correct that the POUM were not 'Trotskyists' - but what was a Trotskyist when not at the wrong end of a GPU gun ?

The POUM were not "tiny" or politically insignificant, particularly since their support was geographically concentrated.

 

[jannerboyuk]

Tony Mulhearn led an excellent discussion regarding the Liverpool 47, and the lessons of that struggle which we can draw today - namely the mainstream parties will always sell out and that we stood firm.

Do you have any criticisms about how the Liverpool situation was handled by Militant? Any at all? Or was it 100% correct in every way?

 

[butchersapron]

It is correct that the POUM were not 'Trotskyists' - but what was a Trotskyist when not at the wrong end of a GPU gun ?

The POUM were not "tiny" or politically insignificant, particularly since their support was geographically concentrated.

(This is true - within a few weeks of the start of the revolution they'd around 40 000 members, concentrated in Lerida which they controlled for some time, but they were still in Catalonia and when balanced against the 1 million CNT members (and rapidly rising) they really didn't carry much weight outside of a few areas, in fact they were dependent on CNT goodwill to operate on the various committees.)

Sorry SP folks, last one on this - promise.

 

[john malcolm]

Do you have any criticisms about how the Liverpool situation was handled by Militant? Any at all? Or was it 100% correct in every way?

To quote Tony Mulhearn via ol blue eyes, regrets Ive had a few etc. In no way was it 100% correct, mistakes were made and Militant own up to that but you have to understand many decisions had to be made on a day to day basis because of the complex financial situation and lets not forget Liverpool were isolated at the time with little support from the official labour movement. We know where the carreerists like Blunket , livingstone and Hodge ended up.All decisions were ratified and supported by the unions, district labour party and then discussed in the communities via news letters etc. I can recommend the book Liverpool the City that dared to fight and the excellent liverpool 47 web site for more of the history of that battle.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Socialist Unity Network site has a report of the event up:
http://www.socialistunitynetwork.co.uk/reports/soc2005.htm

 

[Nigel]

that never happened

anyway nigel what about your association with rose noir? or involvement with DAM, SLP, SA, attempt to join RA/AFA what group is next on your list? SP?
and what groups have i left out?

My only vague connection with Rose Noir is Wayne John, whom I have known since I was Twelve years old who converted me among others to Anarchist ideas. We both joined Libertarian Communist Discussion Group, which became ACF now AF. We jointely wrote an article for a Anarchist Magazine that I was helping to edit called Nyet Pravda attacking the middle class nature of CND in favour of what was Anti-Nuclear Federation. I have'nt seen him for over ten years, but keep in dialogue with friends of his, who are not political, and I find it difficult to believe that he has taken up far right ideas.

I have known people in DAM, but have never been a member. I was in the SLP but left because if the infantile manouvering of Trot elements, and stalinist undemocratic methods, especially by Royston Bull.

Sympathetic towards SA but argued against it because it continued to same diatribe that most Trotskyist Groups had of an unworkable program completely alienated from most working class peoples' interests or desires and later overtaken by SWP.

Not prepared to talk about Anti Fascist stuff on a public forum.
Yes, thinking about joining the Socialist Party.

Anything else you want to know????

 

[Fisher_Gate]

To quote Tony Mulhearn via ol blue eyes, regrets Ive had a few etc. In no way was it 100% correct, mistakes were made and Militant own up to that but you have to understand many decisions had to be made on a day to day basis because of the complex financial situation and lets not forget Liverpool were isolated at the time with little support from the official labour movement. We know where the carreerists like Blunket , livingstone and Hodge ended up.All decisions were ratified and supported by the unions, district labour party and then discussed in the communities via news letters etc. I can recommend the book Liverpool the City that dared to fight and the excellent liverpool 47 web site for more of the history of that battle.

Which 'mistakes', specifically?

The 30,000 redundancy notices? Mulhearn calls them a 'tactical error'. He defends the tactic but blames the media, not the leadership: 'When the tactic was explained to those workers who could be reached, there was support and understanding', but for the wider population 'political understanding is gleaned primarily from ... the television and press'.

 

[Stevil]

If I recall correctly members of SolFed were involved with the Preston Radical Alliance (one of the components of the Network of Socialist Alliances) at one point too, although presumably this was before the PRA started to stand candidates in elections. I could be wrong about this second part though.

PRA never stood candidates. The official line was that the PRA did not endorse any candidates as they also had Green Party members one of whom stood in the by-election against the Lancashire Socialist Alliance candidate.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

PRA never stood candidates. The official line was that the PRA did not endorse any candidates as they also had Green Party members one of whom stood in the by-election against the Lancashire Socialist Alliance candidate.

I've already said that Steve (post #109) ... try to read the whole thread in future ...

And the abbreviation was RPA not PRA.

 

[kiss_don't_dis]

......if the middle class go to pontins where do the underclass go??

 

[Charlie Drake]

Bogner

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Bogner

Bugger Bogner

 

[Pilgrim]

Bugger Bogner

Seconded.

I lived in Bognor Regis for two years.

Talk about a one horse town, except that in Bognor Regis even the horse has got up and left.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Seconded.

I lived in Bognor Regis for two years.

Talk about a one horse town, except that in Bognor Regis even the horse has got up and left.

Didn't they used to have a thriving SWP barnch there in the 80s?

 

[Pilgrim]

Didn't they used to have a thriving SWP barnch there in the 80s?

I don't know.

I only lived there from 1996 to 1998.

But about the only thing that would have made it worse was being repeatedly accosted with the words: "Socalist Worker! Socialist Worker! Get your Socialist Worker! Read all the arguments..."

And so on, ad infinitum.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

I don't know.

I only lived there from 1996 to 1998.

But about the only thing that would have made it worse was being repeatedly accosted with the words: "Socalist Worker! Socialist Worker! Get your Socialist Worker! Read all the arguments..."

And so on, ad infinitum.

We don't have that flash southern marketing here. It's " This weeks Socailst Worker, 50p a copy!"

 

[belboid]

blimey, you are out of date Chuck. It's 80p now.

Don't think they've come up with any new sales slogans since Blair got in, not that most arent still usable.

"All the stories to beat the tories." Classic