So were we lied to about liquid explosives or not?

[pk]

Ooh, saucy!

 

[Dhimmi]

There was also the failed Operation Bojinka. Technically I think it was possible.

Ta for that one, good to see facts posted.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Here's a relevant section from one of the links I've posted above:

On August 10, deputy commissioner of London’s Metropolitan Police Paul Stephenson declared that a plan to “cause untold death and destruction” and “mass murder on an unimaginable scale” had been foiled with the arrest of 24 people. “We believe that the terrorists’ aim was to smuggle explosives onto planes in hand luggage to detonate them in flight”, Stephenson alleged. Britain’s and the world’s mass media trumpeted the claims.

However, within days the dramatic case against the detainees as told to the media by anonymous US and British government and police “sources” began to unravel. The claim that an attack was “imminent” was false. No reservations had been made or airline tickets purchased by the 10 charged with serious terrorism offences; several did not even have passports. Apparently, just one had used the internet to check flight schedules recently. There were no bombs.

The assertion that the detainees intended to destroy 10-12 aircraft was “speculative and exaggerated”, a British official admitted to the August 28 New York Times. Claims of a convoluted “Pakistani connection” between the plotters and al Qaeda have disappeared. The possibility of successfully concocting “liquid bombs” from household products in a plan’es toilet mid-air has been dismissed by chemical experts.
Misrepresentation

Gareth Pierce, defence lawyer for the 17-year-old in the case accused of possessing items “useful to a person preparing acts of terrorism”, told the August 31 Chicago Tribune how police had misrepresented what they had found at the boy’s mother’s home and twisted it to fit their grandiose claims. According to police, “suicide notes”, a map of Afghanistan and a bomb “manual” had been found.

What was actually discovered, Pierce told the Tribune, were wills written by people who had fought in Bosnia more than 10 years earlier. The accused was just six when much of this material was placed in the box! “They’re not suicide notes at all. They’re really simple wills. To call these suicide notes was absolutely disgraceful”, Pierce said.

The wills were found in a box that once belonged to the boy’s father — who has since divorced and moved out — when he ran a now-defunct charity that helped displaced Bosnian Muslims. The box also contained a crude map drawn by the boy’s younger brother when he was a child. There was also a book of drawings of electrical circuits, which even if it was of some use in building a bomb, it would be useless for the device that police allege the group was trying to construct.

Associated Press on September 4 reported that prosecutors told a London court that the detainees will not face trial until March 2008. They will remain in prison and the key details of the prosecution’s case will be kept secret until then.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DIX20061004&articleId=3378

Can anyone remember what was 'in the news' around August 10th that a cynical mind might think this 'terror plot' story was intended to bury?

 

[pk]

Be careful what you wish for, boys...

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

And FYI: Those charges in full

 

[Jazzz]

Here's a relevant section from one of the links I've posted above:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DIX20061004&articleId=3378

Can anyone remember what was 'in the news' around August 10th that a cynical mind might think this 'terror plot' story was intended to bury?

Do remind me... my memory is a bit hazy

 

[pk]

Syd Barrett dying?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

edit

 

[editor]

....I can only say that your position of power here has warped your brain, because if an ordinary poster here reported such a post, the moderators would laugh their heads off.

"Position of power." Bless.

And when it comes to 'warped brains,' your endless succession of lunatic claims sourced from nutcase sites here, suggests that you're the one with the bendy cranium, chum.

Are you drunk?

Are you being a condescending twat?

 

[fela fan]

Better than Jazzz's lunatic option: make up disgusting fantasies that totally exonerate a child murdering paedophile scumbag just because you read some deluded bullshit on some nutcase's website.

but that of course has got nothing to do with the topic at hand, and there's a surprise.

You keep waiting for evidence before you can make your mind up. Face it mate, you'll never get any of it.

Do you really believe the government incapable of espionage??

 

[Wilson]

Here's a relevant section from one of the links I've posted above:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DIX20061004&articleId=3378

Can anyone remember what was 'in the news' around August 10th that a cynical mind might think this 'terror plot' story was intended to bury?

have you seriously forgotton about our support for israel whilst they bombed the living shit out of lebanon for no good reason and the fact that the day before the news about this plot broke things were looking entertainingly grim for tony blair

 

[undercover]

To be honest I don't care if the information is true or not, what matters to me is that I had a brand new tube of hair gel....

...confiscated on a flight on Saturday because it was "over the size limit", and my hair was a mess all weekend after that as I didn't get a chance to replace it.

I don't actually think their should be ANY checks before boarding a plane, it should be done on a pot luck basis of whether you'll get blown up or not. You pays your money, you takes your chance.

It will cut down dramatically on check in times, and will deter many people from flying altogether, which is good for the environment.

Maybe even develop a weekly lottery draw as to which planes will be downed each week.

 

[fudgefactorfive]

heh

 

[Flavour]

maybe there are plots, but not real sophisticated plots - just plotty enough to reduce demand for air travel. think about it - what colour do the environMentalist hippies and the fundaMentalist muslims have in common?

Green.

 

[Kameron]

We have no way of knowing and might as well wait for the trial.

Don't be dense of course we have been told that the suspects were planning to use TATP. We know how to make TATP. You can make it from two easily acquirable chemicals although concentrating hydrogen peroxide to the required level is probably difficult though not impossible. But tipping it into the toilet bowl might leave some burn marks on the lid. You are going to need a lot of ice here or some other way of keeping the whole lots below about 10 degrees C or it will blow up before you have enough TATP to singe the cubical, to do any really damage you have several hours work in the toilet cubical and in all likely hood the huge quantities of noxious fumes you'll produce in the process will set off the toilet cubical smoke alarm, long before they poison the infidel unless he has a gas mask in his hand luggage of course. All this will happen long before there is enough TATP to take off the junior chemists' eyebrows.

The whole thing is a PR success for Al-Qaeda.

 

[laptop]

we have been told that the suspects were planning to use TATP.

But TATP is explosive only when in the form of dry crystals. Either we have been told wrong, or the plot was bollocks; and if it was bollocks, then either it was the plotters' bollocks or the security services'. We currently have no way of knowing.

There is a possible plot, using different substances, that fits the details released and leaked. Naturally, it would be stupid to say what it is.

But tipping it into the toilet bowl might leave some burn marks on the lid. You are going to need a lot of ice here or some other way of keeping the whole lots below about 10 degrees C or it will blow up before you have enough TATP to singe the cubical, to do any really damage you have several hours work in the toilet cubical and in all likely hood the huge quantities of noxious fumes you'll produce in the process will set off the toilet cubical smoke alarm, long before they poison the infidel unless he has a gas mask in his hand luggage of course. All this will happen long before there is enough TATP to take off the junior chemists' eyebrows.

Indeedy. But the details actually released and leaked do not suggest doing chemistry on the plane. That came from stupid journalists guessing.

One of those reporting such cases - by far one of the more intelligent among them - admitted to me in an email that his school had forbidden him to take science exams

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

have you seriously forgotton about our support for israel whilst they bombed the living shit out of lebanon for no good reason and the fact that the day before the news about this plot broke things were looking entertainingly grim for tony blair

I remember that theory from the time, yes. Doesn't ring true to me.

I don't have a very high opinion of Tony Blair but politically he has a hide like a teflon rhino. He's probably been under more pressure over something or other hundreds of times than he was over Israel's behaviour. There just isn't the public interest to put his position under threat, and so there wouldn't be any need to invent bomb plots to avoid the issue.

 

[Kameron]

Indeedy. But the details actually released and leaked do not suggest doing chemistry on the plane. That came from stupid journalists guessing.

Surely that if it is TATP and they are planning to take it onto the plan in liquid form then that is exactly what it implies?

It is also true that you could make the TATP at home and hope to get it on board undetected in crystal form, may be in a sugar bag, since it smells unlike other explosives and apparently dogs aren't (or at least in the past haven't been) been trained for TATP. In this case though you have to be seriously confused by the liquids on a plane option.

Despite expert opinions relayed in the news some of the alternative explosives suggested such as nitroglycerine (hard to handle), Astrolite (easy to make, except not in a plane toilet where you would die before you'd created enough of the stuff to blow up a Childs balloon), finally we have various nitromethane's and the like which again require lots of chemistry and hard to get/extract ingredients.


Any others?

 

[max_freakout]

So this really isn't going to be any different from that farcical story in the news a few years ago that some al-quaeda operatives were planning to use some chemical with a long and scary name osmium somethingsomething, when it transpired that this chemical is more expensive than gold and not even all that harmful to health.

We are so fucking pathetic, we haven't advanced anywhere since world war two if we continue to let the newspapers report this nonsense

 

[fudgefactorfive]

It's almost funny - fifty years after WW2 and the Official Secrets Act expires, we find out all sorts of things about how the government deliberately lied to the populace to keep them under control. But of course, that could never happen now, could it, because ... everyone's nice now.

 

[laptop]

Surely that if it is TATP and they are planning to take it onto the plan in liquid form then that is exactly what it implies?

Er, how long would it take to dry out a bottle of dissolved TATP?

Any others?

Yes, there are others makeable from ingredients available retail. I've geniunely forgotten the name of the substances, though the fact that one of them stinks of rotting garlic may help you find it.

Naming it publicly would of course be contempt of court - there's a severe risk that doing so would assist the security services in cooking up a plot allegation if there was in fact no plot

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

It's almost funny - fifty years after WW2 and the Official Secrets Act expires, we find out all sorts of things about how the government deliberately lied to the populace to keep them under control. But of course, that could never happen now, could it, because ... everyone's nice now.

I agree completely that that is a very stupid attitude. Obviously it's more than possible that they're lying.

I don't think it's any more stupid than the instant presumption that anything said by the government is necessarily a lie though. There plainly are a number of people who are intent on blowing things up and killing people, and I don't see anyone who is going to stop them other than the security services.

So i'm in the dark, on the fence and not knowing who to believe. Same as most people, I imagine.

 

[max_freakout]

and I don't see anyone who is going to stop them other than the security services.

But they DON'T stop them, july 7th happened, and now (i suspect) they are inventing 'thwarted terror attacks' for the media to disseminate to create the illusion that the security services actually have some power to prevent terrorism


It's fucking ridiculous, we seem to be no less able to analyse propaganda critically and think for ourselves than we were during the cold war if we believe all this nonsense

 

[Wilson]

I remember that theory from the time, yes. Doesn't ring true to me.

I don't have a very high opinion of Tony Blair but politically he has a hide like a teflon rhino. He's probably been under more pressure over something or other hundreds of times than he was over Israel's behaviour. There just isn't the public interest to put his position under threat, and so there wouldn't be any need to invent bomb plots to avoid the issue.

i agree pretty much, which is why i said 'entertainingly grim', sure enough theres no chance that they invented the bomb plot just to avoid the issue (im not a loonspud) but it was very convienient that the bust happened when it did and that it overshadowed a lot of noise that was being made about the americans transporting bombs for israel through our airports without asking and about our complicit lack of condemnation for israel, about which over 150 mps and major charaties and aid organisations were calling for a recall of parliment and Jim Sheridan had quit

 

[laptop]

we seem to be no less able to analyse propaganda critically and think for ourselves than we were during the cold war

I think this is an example of being right by accident - a Freudian un-slip

Indeed, analysing propaganda critically means neither accepting government statements because they come from the government, nor the reverse.

It means clearly distinguishing:

• What we know, for all reasonable values of "know", to be true: for example that underground trains and a bus were blown up by suicide bombers on 7 July last;
• What is highly probable: for example that the guy who plead guilty this month was a Walter Mitty; and
• What is unknowable, by us, at present: for example whether there was a plot against planes out of the UK involving liquid thingies.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

Pssst! Wanna buy some Red Mercury?

 

[Georgie Porgie]

Indeed, analysing propaganda critically means neither accepting government statements because they come from the government, nor the reverse.

My old teacher used to say "Analysis is neither belief nor disbelief. As soon as you choose - you stop thinking about it."

 

[refugee]

Naming it publicly would of course be contempt of court

That's one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in a very long time.

 

[max_freakout]

Pssst! Wanna buy some Red Mercury?

Psssssst, i have some good osmium tetroxide

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3604857.stm

 

[Descartes]

The options:

A PR success for the terrorist, merely name a date and whisper the words, bombs, aircraft, people and flames. The reaction from the Security services, almost panic. Evidence, to date, Nil. The cost to the public, the delays, the .. the list goes on, another win situation for the terrorists.

Reality check, PR success for Tony Blair, lack of Funding, lack of MP on side, lack of cred, lets hype up the terrorist bit and getting everyone believing it's all about to happen.

Exercise, Security Service want a bigger budget, a quick scare mongering job and .. whammy, more dosh.

Fact, a number of individual have been charged with some very suspect charges and held for... how long? Right, everyone will have forgotten all about it and the suspects can be released..

Example, 'Kin tanks at heathrow, wheeled out to remind everyone how alert Blairy and his buddies were.. ( NOT) A car number plate recognition camera was set up at the Heathrow tunnel, the vehicles without road tax or suspect registration were pulled into the petrol station at the end of the tunnel. results, loads of cars without raod tax but no terrorists but it kept the travelling public aware as they drove into heathrow, seeing all those heavily armed policemen.

My vote, a very badly managed hype exercise, lacking both cred and conviction.