So Tube Strike anyone?
- Thread starter Biglittlefish
- Start date
Pretty much so.
The other cause of good conditions might be say the police where good conditions are offeed in eturn for loyalty, but that might also be classified as demand for a certain type of labour.
What other reasons might there be for employers to offer better pay and conditions?
Tube-driving is highly responsible, safety critical and involves working unsociable hours in fairly unpleasant conditions with the ever-present risk of having someone's guts spattered all over the front of the cab. I don't think tube drivers' pay, pension entitlements and the rest are at all unreasonable. They maintain them, of course, through having a strong union, and quite right too. More of us should. I have to say that I don't think the RMT's pay claim on this occasion is very realistic, though.
That is an understatement.
Well exactly, as I said. When employers have demand for labour, particuarly qualified labour, that is in relatively short supply and they have to compete with other employees to get that labour, they will offer better pay and conditions.
However the massive expansion of education, de-skilling of jobs, the development of Europe and globalisation amongst other factors means that isn't on the cards much these days.
Any worsening or pay and conditions (we are braced for the screws being turned on our flexitime next week) is NOT going to come back in a hurry which is why they are worth defending, even in the midst of a crisis that we certainly didn't make.
What does this mean, and haven't you just described the way a labour market works?
Yes, that's how the capitalist labour market works.
Increase the exploitation of labour to increase profit and I think it is fundamentally wrong.
By de-skilling of jobs I don't mean that individual workers are becoming less inteligent, far from it. Perhaps a better description might be the de-valuing of jobs.
Jobs that were 10, 15 years ago of managerial status with the high qualifications and experience neeeded resulting in car and bonuses and nice salary get downgraded and although not open to school leavers at 16 are worth financially and in terms of social standing less than they used to be.
My personal opinion in terms of striking tube drivers who are "classic" workers is that this is where a lot of the bitterness from supposedly the supposedly urbaine young comes from. With a jolt they realise that the middle class dream they were sold of "go to university and you will get a nice job" is bollocks and the bile rises.
Increase the exploitation of labour to increase profit and I think it is fundamentally wrong.
By de-skilling of jobs I don't mean that individual workers are becoming less inteligent, far from it. Perhaps a better description might be the de-valuing of jobs.
Jobs that were 10, 15 years ago of managerial status with the high qualifications and experience neeeded resulting in car and bonuses and nice salary get downgraded and although not open to school leavers at 16 are worth financially and in terms of social standing less than they used to be.
My personal opinion in terms of striking tube drivers who are "classic" workers is that this is where a lot of the bitterness from supposedly the supposedly urbaine young comes from. With a jolt they realise that the middle class dream they were sold of "go to university and you will get a nice job" is bollocks and the bile rises.
That's a bizarrely rigid view of how the job market works.
Old jobs become redundant as the economy modernises and improves from a technological point of view, just as new jobs are created with new industries.
There is no overall downward trend. In terms of real purchasing power British incomes have increased over the long-term. If anything, there has been a very long upwards trend since the war.
Old jobs become redundant as the economy modernises and improves from a technological point of view, just as new jobs are created with new industries.
There is no overall downward trend. In terms of real purchasing power British incomes have increased over the long-term. If anything, there has been a very long upwards trend since the war.
Technology changes and indeed old jobs become redundant.
Railway workers jobs were created isntead of canal workers jobs instead of pack horse drivers jobs.
The way technology is also used though is to reduce the number of workers to produce the same ammount of goods ie the profit per worker and thus the exploitation per worker increases.
At the start of this process you can offer the individualw worker better pay and conditions but the employer will attempt to push that down in real terms over time.
Living standards in Britain increased steadily since 1945.
I remember outside toilets, paraffin heating and cold water only plumbing as a child. Where that began to falter I don't know. But we are in the situation now where a lot of today's generations are going to end their days poorer than their parents. Hence the bitterness.
Anyhoo, before we go off on too much of a tangent; my contentions stands:
Pay and conditions only get better through inductrial millitancy or the demands of the employers for relativly rare highly qualified labour.
So anything we give up now ain't gonna come back in a hurry.
Railway workers jobs were created isntead of canal workers jobs instead of pack horse drivers jobs.
The way technology is also used though is to reduce the number of workers to produce the same ammount of goods ie the profit per worker and thus the exploitation per worker increases.
At the start of this process you can offer the individualw worker better pay and conditions but the employer will attempt to push that down in real terms over time.
Living standards in Britain increased steadily since 1945.
I remember outside toilets, paraffin heating and cold water only plumbing as a child. Where that began to falter I don't know. But we are in the situation now where a lot of today's generations are going to end their days poorer than their parents. Hence the bitterness.
Anyhoo, before we go off on too much of a tangent; my contentions stands:
Pay and conditions only get better through inductrial millitancy or the demands of the employers for relativly rare highly qualified labour.
So anything we give up now ain't gonna come back in a hurry.
I can see where you're coming from but I don't think it makes too much sense in the modern market economy, although no doubt it'd vary from business to business and something like driving tube trains would be more liable to that kind of exploitation than anything else.
From my point of view it is in the interests of the employer to maintain a workforce that have a decent wage and good conditions linked to incentives because that improves productivity, which is a far more sustainable and effective way to gaining profit (if that indeed is your end goal, and that cannot be taken for granted).
It's a bit like setting price: sure, you can charge a lot for your product but that will likely reduce revenue by reducing sales, consequently reducing your profit margin. Therefore it is more sensible to charge a lower price which maximises revenue. In the same way you can try and pay shit wages and provide crap conditions but the likely effect is that you will recruit poor quality employees who will be undermotivated, possiblly underqualified, over employed and most likely will do a shit job therefore reducing productivity/product quality and increasing your relative costs/market reputation therefore leading to a reduction in the profit margin.
At least that's the way the market is supposed to work.
From my point of view it is in the interests of the employer to maintain a workforce that have a decent wage and good conditions linked to incentives because that improves productivity, which is a far more sustainable and effective way to gaining profit (if that indeed is your end goal, and that cannot be taken for granted).
It's a bit like setting price: sure, you can charge a lot for your product but that will likely reduce revenue by reducing sales, consequently reducing your profit margin. Therefore it is more sensible to charge a lower price which maximises revenue. In the same way you can try and pay shit wages and provide crap conditions but the likely effect is that you will recruit poor quality employees who will be undermotivated, possiblly underqualified, over employed and most likely will do a shit job therefore reducing productivity/product quality and increasing your relative costs/market reputation therefore leading to a reduction in the profit margin.
At least that's the way the market is supposed to work.
Well this strike is about threatened job losses so you can fuck the fuck off.
And Bob Crow doesn't call a strike and people 'support him'. The members get balloted you loon.
Surplus cunts are surplus. You of all should people should know this.
No, its about greedy pricks demanding a wage increase when the rest of the general populace are taking pay cuts out of necessity.
You fucking idiot. Unbelievable.
How terrible wanting to protect people's jobs in the current climate.
Oh, and old meme is old.
The irony. My sides.
It's partly that, yes. But also about protecting job losses of office workers. And I don't see wanting more than a 1% pay deal as particularly 'greedy'. Not after what we're witnessing with the politicians and bankers.
They want 5%.
I've taken a -40% for reference sake. I'm not striking. I'm dealing with it.
That's probably the negotiating price in order to get around the 3% mark. They are being offered 1%. My sources are slightly more accurate than the evening standard by the way, Tory Girl.
Well it's not my fault if you're too dumb and pro-capitalist to find yourself in that position, is it?
Well.
C'mon then deepthroat, whos your source?
I'm a member.
Do you have a job? Just curious like. Do you get paid?
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
Andy the Don
Wise men say only fools..
I have a good mate who is a tube driver on the District Line and according to him Bob Crow is getting support from a small cabal of the workforce. Most of the tube drivers are aslef members and very happy with their pay and conditions with a modicum amount of overtime a tube driver can earn £42-45,000+ pa. Bob Crow gets his support from the tube station staff and if the stations do not open passengers cannot get the trains. Anyhow Tony has texted me saying that as it is not aslef taking industrial action he will just have to book in by phone and then will be booked off to spend the day fishing and on full pay and wished all of us poor commuters a pleasant journey to work for the rest of the week.
I am actually ok as I do not use the tube but wifey normally goes Northern Line into London Bridge which will be mucky.
Guess that the solution for us (her) is to leave at stupidoclock in the morning and try to beat the bus rush.
No doubt that we will not be alone in this plan though.
Guess that the solution for us (her) is to leave at stupidoclock in the morning and try to beat the bus rush.
No doubt that we will not be alone in this plan though.
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