So the fuckers vote for longer uncharged detention

[elbows]

This article seemed ok:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/11/terrorism.uksecurity


Maybe liberty suffered from the millenium bug, incompatible with this century for reasons that have yet to make themselves fully transparent.

 

[shagnasty]

Diane Abbott made a good speech against, I now dislike her a little less.

Brown spent a fucking fortune buying votes as well, three meeting with the DUP today, I bet they really took him to the cleaners.

Yes i thought it was a good speech but didn't do any good though

 

[danny la rouge]

Citizens should take some responsibility or we're fucked, as this case demonstrates.

Indeed.

 

[shagnasty]

the last time someone didn't listen to the arguements about their policy was thatcher with the poll tax could this be browns poll tax

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

thing is, they were saying that most of the general public actually agreed with this!!! of course, that could be reportage/propaganda but you do have to wonder some times as well.

a policy whereby education doesn't actually teach people but aims to indoctrinate them can only end in tears imo.

 

[Brainaddict]

the last time someone didn't listen to the arguements about their policy was thatcher with the poll tax could this be browns poll tax

nah. poll tax affected everyone. this just affects terrrrists.

 

[danny la rouge]

nah. poll tax affected everyone. this just affects terrrrists.

Yup, there's been too many years of "human rights have gone too far" for people to realise this really isn't about bad guys; it's about them.

 

[treelover]

Not defending this awful decision, but hasn't Habeus Corpus been suspended in the past, such as the internment of 'aliens' during WW2 and according to MI5, camps for communists were to be set up in the cold war if war broke out, its not new...

http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/Page260.html

 

[danny la rouge]

hasn't Habeus Corpus been suspended in the past

Suspended, yes. This isn't a suspension of it, though; it's a continual ability, enshrined in law for ever, for the Home Secy to allow someone to be held for 42 days. It is the end of habeas corpus as we knew it.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

i know who i'd like to suspend...

 

[story]

I remember lobbying parliament the night they took away the Right to remain silent on arrest. 1994, I think.

We were protesting the CJB, there was a meeting at Queen Elizabeth Hall.

It was clear then that they would eventually remove Habeas Corpus.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

what a difference 14 years makes eh? then we were out on the streets, now we're sat in the living room ffs...

 

[Kid_Eternity]

what a difference 14 years makes eh? then we were out on the streets, now we're sat in the living room ffs...

"fitter, happier, more pro_ductive"

Radiohead were right.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

i fucking *hate* radiohead.

i wish they all had 42 day detention.

indefinitely.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

i fucking *hate* radiohead.

i wish they all had 42 day detention.

indefinitely.

Nah they be great but you deserve 42 days detention just for saying otherwise!

 

[story]

what a difference 14 years makes eh? then we were out on the streets, now we're sat in the living room ffs...

I know

The Stop The War march when millions took to the streets and nothing happened: I think that's when apathy won.

If the govt. had answered us then, we would have continued protesting. Their ignoring us was a far more effective response.

 

[treelover]

Surely that's the problem, they ignored us and apathy took over, and they still had their war, its a win, win, for them

though in the long term, the drip drip of political disillusionment must and will have an effect.

Story said

'If the govt. had answered us then, we would have continued protesting. Their ignoring us was a far more effective response.'

 

[EddyBlack]

It is a worrying trend. All of the main fundamental civil libeties have been eroded and damaged. When they where defeated on 90 days to 'just' 28 days, I knew they would come back and extend it at some point. The terror card always seems to win, even in cases like this where it really wasn't shown that it was neccesary. I'm surprised they didn't send the tanks into Heathrow for this one! It was a narrow victory, I think there is a good chance it will be stopped in the HoL. Rebel Labour MP, Paul Flynn illustrated the impossibility he faced even to be heard in the commons debate:

'Please Don't Interrupt Me While I'm Ignoring You-

... my frustration continued in the 42 days debate. I tried to intervene from the start of Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary’s speech. She was deaf to my requests although she gave way to about 16 other MPs. From the Labour side she allowed friendly cuddling questions from Keith Vaz and Mohammed Sarwar. She even gave way to Tony Lloyd who was not even standing. This was all part of the script. In PM's question the ever lap-dog loyal George Howarth was called even though his name was not chosen in the shuffle. Yes, it’s a fiddle controlled by the executive.

Jacqui still refused to give way to my question although she was repeatedly allowing opposition members to question her. I crossed to the other side of the Chamber and sat next to the Independent member Richard Taylor. There was some alarm on my side. Chief Whip Geoff Hoon was in a state of visible consternation. He appeared to be on the brink of apoplexy. I made three further courteous requests at full volume for the ‘Hon Lady to give way.’ For some mysterious reason she still could not hear me.

The question I would have asked is a simple one that puzzles me. As the Government insisted last time that 90 days was essential, what has changed since to make 42 days adequate?’

Now, we will never now.'
http://paulflynnmp.typepad.com/

 

[poster342002]

what a difference 14 years makes eh? then we were out on the streets, now we're sat in the living room ffs...

One word answers why: internet

 

[Haller]

Labour rebels and some Conservative MPs claimed that the DUP had won concessions worth up to £200m on retaining water charge revenues that would otherwise be clawed back by Westminster. Next year the average additional burden for households is predicted to be £160, rising to £250 in 2010.

They also suggested that revenue from the former military estate in Northern Ireland could stay with Stormont rather than being shared with the exchequer. This could be worth £1bn, according to some estimates.

The party was also seeking a guarantee that the human embryology and fertility bill, currently going through parliament, would not be loosened to allow UK abortion rules to apply in Northern Ireland.

Back in 1979, when the minority Labour government was facing the vote of no confidence that eventually brought it down, Frank Maguire - the Independent MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone - was offered three bottles of whiskey in exchange for his support.

Inflation is clearly out of control.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Other interesting statistics:


Quote:
The British public is overwhelmingly in favour of Government plans to hold terror suspects for up to 42 days before they are charged, a Telegraph poll shows.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...oll-shows.html

And the point you're making is what?

 

[Haller]

And the point you're making is what?

Presumably that Brown has finally found a policy that's popular. For a man in his position, that's so wonderful that nothing else - decency, civil liberties, principle - is of any consequence.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Presumably that Brown has finally found a policy that's popular. For a man in his position, that's so wonderful that nothing else - decency, civil liberties, principle - is of any consequence.

Just shows what a bad situation Brown is in that even when going for a popular policy he still makes himself look bad and has come out of it looking desperate. There is nothing Brown can do now to turn things around, he's finished like John Major was.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Presumably that Brown has finally found a policy that's popular. For a man in his position, that's so wonderful that nothing else - decency, civil liberties, principle - is of any consequence.

Or that having found a popular policy he wasn't going to ditch it given the damage that might cause; you can write your own headlines.

The only up side of all this is that this is unlikely to become law and even if it does it will be almost unworkable.

All of which means that any deal Brown has done with the DUP makes this a possibly very expensive piece of gesture politics.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[netbob]

full list of rebels up here:

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2008-06-11&number=219

 

[Belushi]

Just shows what a bad situation Brown is in that even when going for a popular policy he still makes himself look bad and has come out of it looking desperate. There is nothing Brown can do now to turn things around, he's finished like John Major was.

Yup, I just cant see him turning it around now; he's too far into Callaghan/Major territory.

I never thought Brown would make an effective PM but I didnt see him being this bad at the job.

 

[agricola]

Just shows what a bad situation Brown is in that even when going for a popular policy he still makes himself look bad and has come out of it looking desperate. There is nothing Brown can do now to turn things around, he's finished like John Major was.

I would question whether it is that popular, to be honest. As was noted during the debate yesterday people are not spontaneously demanding that terrorist suspects be locked up for the magic number of 42 days, and as even Cameron was able to point out during PMQs, this is not about popularity.

 

[Haller]

The only up side of all this is that this is unlikely to become law and even if it does it will be almost unworkable.

I'm not sure I take much reassurance from the unworkability of the proposal. What it will be used for is to extend periods of detention without charge at a lower level. The 42-day limit probably won't be used, but its existence will justify a rise in the average number of days that suspects are held.

 

[agricola]

Yup, I just cant see him turning it around now; he's too far into Callaghan/Major territory.

I never thought Brown would make an effective PM but I didnt see him being this bad at the job.

He has been a terrible Chancellor but managed to escape detection (largely because of a large majority in the Commons, the focus on Bliar, a rubbish opposition and a duped, ineffective media) until now - PFI alone should be enough to condemn him, but there is a lot more that he has done.

Since the non-election the Tories have realised that the emperor is in fact naked and have trashed him, fairly comprehensively and entirely appropriately.

 

[Haller]

I would question whether it is that popular, to be honest. As was noted during the debate yesterday people are not spontaneously demanding that terrorist suspects be locked up for the magic number of 42 days.

This is probably true. When asked, people will say they're in favour, but it's not a burning issue and Brown will get little credit for it. In the same polls that show support for 42 days, the Tories still come out as being more trusted on anti-terrorism.

And the support for the 42 days in the press came from the likes of the Sun and the Sunday Telegraph - not papers that are going to give any quarter to Brown on anything else.