So many drivers driving with their left hand side mirrors folded back

[GoneCoastal]

Does anyone really think that a driver with no functional wing mirror doesn't use any other method to check the situation? If they have a mirror, they might not bother to check properly, but if they don't they pretty much have to. It might be counterintuitive, but it's probably safer - even if that's not why they do it.

It's a few years ago now when I passed my test but the stress was on "check rear view (interior mirror), signal, check blind spot etc"
Little emphasis on using wing mirrors other than to emphasise that the distances appear different between wing & interior mirrors

 

[T & P]

Unless the interior mirror is positioned specifically to eliminate the blind spot, people who don't use the left hand mirror in their car are putting the lives of others at risk. And not only bikers, but other vehicles in multi-lane highways.

And somehow I doubt those who can't be arsed to unfold the left wing mirror will bother to adjust the interior mirror to account for this.

 

[ymu]

It's a few years ago now when I passed my test but the stress was on "check rear view (interior mirror), signal, check blind spot etc"
Little emphasis on using wing mirrors other than to emphasise that the distances appear different between wing & interior mirrors

Yeah. The looking over your shoulder is the "check blind spot" bit. Mirrors are terrible for spotting small vehicles as they fit into the blind spot(s) so much more easily. When cycling, I like to be able to see the driver's face in their mirror - then I know they can see me too.

 

[GoneCoastal]

Unless the interior mirror is positioned specifically to eliminate the blind spot, people who don't use the left hand mirror in their car are putting the lives of others at risk. And not only bikers, but other vehicles in multi-lane highways.

And somehow I doubt those who can't be arsed to unfold the left wing mirror will bother to adjust the interior mirror to account for this.

Genuine question here... surely there's some sort of conflict here... I mean the law says people shouldn't overtake on the inside (doesn't it ?) and I wonder if that's why there's no legal requirement for a left hand mirror at the least and as you say people should check blind spots anyway

I know that when I'm driving I make very sure I do my blind spot checking because that's how I was taught and it was drummed into me to not wholly rely on mirrors

 

[ymu]

Genuine question here... surely there's some sort of conflict here... I mean the law says people shouldn't overtake on the inside (doesn't it ?) and I wonder if that's why there's no legal requirement for a left hand mirror at the least and as you say people should check blind spots anyway

You can undertake when "traffic is moving slowly in lanes" - ie in a traffic jam, which is the only time a bicycle will have a chance to undertake anyway.

 

[i386]

It's a few years ago now when I passed my test but the stress was on "check rear view (interior mirror), signal, check blind spot etc"
Little emphasis on using wing mirrors other than to emphasise that the distances appear different between wing & interior mirrors

I passed my British driver's test this year and the current standard protocol should be 'mirror, mirror, signal', which is rear mirror first, wing mirror second and then indicate.

The left hand mirror is not a plain one, but once you get used to the distances things projected on it, it is much better a driver's tool than the interior mirror is. I use interior mirror when braking, or observing the driver behind me when I am sat in stationary traffic

 

[GoneCoastal]

You can undertake when "traffic is moving slowly in lanes" - ie in a traffic jam, which is the only time a bicycle will have a chance to undertake anyway.

Another serious question... (and I'm asking here because I recently returned to cycling)
Inside lane between kerb & stationary cars ? Or between two lanes of cars ? I ask because I've stayed well away from doing the first (unless there's a cycle lane) although the 2nd I've been doing
When no cycle lane, I've just sat behind a car waiting ... also mainly because as a driver having people negotiate along my left side when I'm in the inside lane in a queue can be a bit umm ... surprising ... )

Again genuine questions

 

[ymu]

I passed my British driver's test this year and the current standard protocol should be 'mirror, mirror, signal', which is rear mirror first, wing mirror second and then indicate.

Yikes.

Firstly, you should always check again after you signal and before moving out - it's ridiculously dangerous not to. I've had a coach move into the space I'd just moved into because he didn't spot me signalling and didn't bother checking again (very near miss, I owe my life to the quick reaction of the driver that was by then overtaking me and blocking my escape route), and I've had plenty of drivers speed up to prevent me moving into a clear space in front of them as soon as they saw me signal.

Secondly, do they still not require you to check over your shoulder too? Motorbikers fail their test for not checking properly - why in hell don't people in much more lethal machines have to do the same?

 

[GoneCoastal]

Yikes.

Firstly, you should always check again after you signal and before moving out - it's ridiculously dangerous not to. I've had a coach move into the space I'd just moved into because he didn't spot me signalling and didn't bother checking again (very near miss, I owe my life to the quick reaction of the driver that was by then overtaking me and blocking my escape route), and I've had plenty of drivers speed up to prevent me moving into a clear space in front of them as soon as they saw me signal.

Secondly, do they still not require you to check over your shoulder too? Motorbikers fail their test for not checking properly - why in hell don't people in much more lethal machines have to do the same?

Mirror, Signal, Manoever though I distinctly remember being taught to look over my shoulder before pulling out, changing lanes etc ... it's just sort of part of my driving habits now, if it's not a requirement now I must say I'm very surprised

 

[ymu]

Another serious question... (and I'm asking here because I recently returned to cycling)
Inside lane between kerb & stationary cars ? Or between two lanes of cars ? I ask because I've stayed well away from doing the first (unless there's a cycle lane) although the 2nd I've been doing
When no cycle lane, I've just sat behind a car waiting ... also mainly because as a driver having people negotiate along my left side when I'm in the inside lane in a queue can be a bit umm ... surprising ... )

Again genuine questions

Well, cars can't move in further than the inside lane for a start - if they don't check when turning left they shouldn't be allowed on the road.

You'd have to check the highway code for the precise answer to your question, but I can't imagine it requires cyclists to move outside at least one lane of cars before undertaking as so many jams are stop start affairs and it'd leave them dangerously stranded when the traffic sped up. The inside of the inside lane is where cyclists are supposed to be, most of the time.

The rules for cyclists and motorcyclists are a bit different from cars and very much focused on their personal safety. For example, when I took my motorbike test, not overtaking at traffic lights to get to the front of the queue would be a fail (it's more dangerous to sit in amongst traffic than to get ahead of it), and you would not be failed for speeding if you were keeping up with the prevailing traffic (but you might get a minor fault for not speeding if the prevailing traffic was). I spent a good proportion of my test doing 40 in a 30 limit and it wasn't even mentioned - because it's safety first for two-wheelers.

 

[ymu]

if it's not a requirement now I must say I'm very surprised

Me too, but i386 reckoned he passed very recently using this death-wish formula. Scary if true.

 

[i386]

ymu,

the car test doesn't require you to look over the shoulder on *every* occasion as it argues that for learners doing so may result in a loss of observation for what happening in front of them. the required moments that you need to look over the shoulder are: a) moving off, and b) merging on to a motorway from slip road. In these 2 scenarios you don't have any prior knowledge about the road's condition, hence a shoulder check is a must.

On other occasions, the test/standard requires you to check left/right/interior mirrors every 3-4 seconds to get a developing view on what is happening around your car. If the driver keeps up with the outside by routinely (and frequently enough) checking mirrors around, he will have much fewer chances of encountering the 'unexpected'.

That's what the driver's test requires, and of course one size does not fit all -- but in *common* cases, a car driver doesn't need to look over the should *every* time he turns, given that this driver is in constant awareness of his/her situation around.

 

[ymu]

But do they not teach you to check again (mirrors or shoulders) after signalling and before moving out?

ie mirror, mirror, signal, mirror/shoulder, manoeuvre?

Seriously - it's horrendous not to. Never risk it. As I already said, I was nearly killed by a coach signalling and then moving straight out when I'd just moved into the same spot - I was already in it before he started moving out, and there was a car already overtaking me blocking my escape route back to the outside lane. And there are any number of twats on the roads who will speed up to close a gap ahead of them if they see you signalling to move into it. If you're not being taught to check again after you signal, there's something very very wrong with what's being taught/examined.

 

[i386]

Me too, but i386 reckoned he passed very recently using this death-wish formula. Scary if true.

i passed earlier this year with 2 minor mistakes. previously i had an hgv licence from another country but did not drive for ages before i retook the UK training + test (for a car). i only describe what i was taught -- and i am certainly aware of the cyclists on London's congested roads ...

 

[ymu]

i passed earlier this year with 2 minor mistakes. previously i had an hgv licence from another country but did not drive for ages before i retook the UK training + test (for a car). i only describe what i was taught -- and i am certainly aware of the cyclists on London's congested roads ...

Not meant as a criticism of you - just what is being taught and passed. And I don't mean the shoulders bit - I mean the not checking again between signalling and moving out (see above).

 

[i386]

But do they not teach you to check again (mirrors or shoulders) after signalling and before moving out?

ie mirror, mirror, signal, mirror/shoulder, manoeuvre?

Seriously - it's horrendous not to. Never risk it. As I already said, I was nearly killed by a coach signalling and then moving straight out when I'd just moved into the same spot - I was already in it before he started moving out, and there was a car already overtaking me blocking my escape route back to the outside lane. And there are any number of twats on the roads who will speed up to close a gap ahead of them if they see you signalling to move into it. If you're not being taught to check again after you signal, there's something very very wrong with what's being taught/examined.

As I remember I was told this depends on the situation, but was not mandatory -- and the examiner will not fail you if you do not physically look back when turn. but if you start to move off or merge onto a dual carriage way and don't look over, it's definitely a failure.

But thanks to your suggestion as I will pay more attention to what you have just described.

 

[i386]

Not meant as a criticism of you - just what is being taught and passed. And I don't mean the shoulders bit - I mean the not checking again between signalling and moving out (see above).

it was mentioned in the teaching, but as I remembered this was neither specifically strengthened nor enforced (during a test). Maybe they found by over doing that the learners will get so distracted and forgot to look forward?

but you made a good point.

 

[ymu]

As I remember I was told this depends on the situation, but was not mandatory -- and the examiner will not fail you if you do not physically look back when turn. but if you start to move off or merge onto a dual carriage way and don't look over, it's definitely a failure.

But thanks to your suggestion as I will pay more attention to what you have just described.

OK - that sounds a bit better. Bikers used to have to check over their left shoulder when moving in after overtaking a parked car, but that was abandoned as being overly anal and more dangerous than focusing on the road ahead, so I guess it's a similar policy change to that.

It is definitely more critical on dual carriageways. Stay safe.

 

[GoneCoastal]

Sounds like things have changed over time.. thanks i386