So Is That It For ID Cards Then?

[jonajuna]

nothing can prevent crime other than "precog's"

low level fraud (?most of it?) will be lessened or at least made more difficult. at the moment it is possible to get credit in say curry's on the basis of a debit card and utility bill or 2, neither of which are linked to you in any provable way.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

this Orwellian argument what makes you so significant that anyone really cares about what you do? look at all the discussion on here, how many of you route through multiple anon proxies? thought so, just a few of the ultra paranoid im sure if "the man" wanted to get you, making use of all the information you freely volunteer up every day on the interweb, mobile phone, landline, when using your debit card, when you are photographed on avergae 300 times aday, number plate read by countless roadside cameras etc i accept and share concerns about the issue of security of data within the chip on the card, im not suggesting that any serious crim or terrorist or the like would find it more than possible to manipulate the system, but it would be just one more hurdle for them and with regards immigration/travel, s is likely to offer a higher level of security that the "papers" we make use of now

There is a crucial difference: if someone nicks your credit card or somehow hacks your bank account they have possibly ripped you off for some money, which hopefully the bank will refund eventually.

D'you know what happens if your bank account is compromised?

They close the account/make that account number inactive and give you a new one. It happened to me twice last year when the bank said there was some major fraud thing going on and they had to cancel cards and issue new ones with different numbers.

And any and every type of transaction has to be set up again, payments for utilities, council tax, renewable magazine subscriptions, insurance premiums. All the historical stuff doesn't matter, but anyway it's a right royal pain in the arse setting all the current payments back up.

The bank cancels the old account and old card so they can't be used again and to prevent ongoing fraud.

Sorry am posting from mobile... More...

 

[jonajuna]

There is a crucial difference: if someone nicks your credit card or somehow hacks your bank account they have possibly ripped you off for some money, which hopefully the bank will refund eventually.

D'you know what happens if your bank account is compromised?

They close the account/make that account number inactive and give you a new one. It happened to me twice last year when the bank said there was some major fraud thing going on and they had to cancel cards and issue new ones with different numbers.

And any and every type of transaction has to be set up again, payments for utilities, council tax, renewable magazine subscriptions, insurance premiums. All the historical stuff doesn't matter, but anyway it's a right royal pain in the arse setting all the current payments back up.

The bank cancels the old account and old card so they can't be used again and to prevent ongoing fraud.

Sorry am posting from mobile... More...

sure. i accept and know these things, i have 2 current accounts, one that my wages goes into, from this i have a standing order to another current account... all my bills are paid from this. i have no debit card or cheque book attached to this acct

whats left in current acct 1 is what is there for "cash" so debit card transactions, cash point etc

current acct 2 is unlikley to be comprimised as its "firewalled" so to speak

current acct 1 could have the debit card cloned but impact would be minimal (albeit a pisser)

i can guess what the next part of your post will be... what happens if your id card is comprimised/cloned.......

a certain possibility, but they can only clone the info on it, unless they also clone my finger prints/dna/retinal scans (who knows yet what biometric they will actually have) the data on the printed face of card will not match the data on the chip and/or data on the database

so to succesfully nick "me" as an entity, they would have to clone my card, pervert my biometrics and hack into and change the details on the government database

who really is going to do this on a frequent basis? what would anyone really have to gain from cloning me? if they want my debt, welcome to it

im more warried about the actual events now, the medical records that are accessible over the internet, the medical records that shortly will be editable by you (or anyone that can guess your password (and come on, how many of us really use 128bit random data strings for passwords that we change every few weeks?))

we need to improve identity issues, id cards are a start on that, the trials will pick up problems and reduce/eliminate them before it goes national. we cannot stay stuck in the information stone age on this issue

all change carries potential problems, but until you suck it and see, what the actual (as opposed to supposed) problems are unknown and therefore not solvable

plus i still hold the opinion that 99.9% of us are completely insignificant

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Yes, I was going to mention identity theft and cloning.

People who steal identities don't just want to rinse your bank account.

They might want to open an account with a different bank, get a job, work, get paid, rent a flat, get a tenancy agreement in your name, go to the doctors and get free health care, enrol their children into school, if you've passed your driving test, they can drive, even if they've never had a lesson but a mate taught them in Asda's car park...

They're not necessarily people wanting to steal or commit fraud, they're more likely to be people living in the grey economy who just want to live and get by living a kind of 'law abiding' after a fashion life.

What if you're a teacher applying for a job in a catholic school and your dopellganger has worked, legitimately and paid tax and national insurance while working in the adult entertainment industry and the school you're applying to has access not just to your CV or whatever you chose to put on an application form, but your entire employment record because it's all on the database... Hell, what if your identity hasn't been stolen but you paid your way through uni pole-dancing in Spearmint Rhino and now every employer you want to work for can check your full employment history, not just the edited highlights you put on your CV.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

And what about all the data entry monkeys paid peanuts. There will probably loads of them working through an agency on some kind of temp login, because the IT dept can't cope with the staff turnover.

What do you think will happen with a load of poorly paid disaffected young people doing a boring repetitive job in the summer holidays?

I'm guessing they might have competitions about who can make the most outrageous amendment to a file.

Hey Dave, I just gave this 80-year-old granny a criminal record. She's done a ten stretch for dealing!!

That's nothing mate, I.ve made it so this vicar's been done for kerb crawling now and I've given him syphillis as well.

Hey, d'you remember Mr Smith who used to give me such a hard time in Maths class... He's applying for his pension, what d'you reckon I wipe out half his NI contributions so if only gets half a pension?

I reckon there will be idiots who do that kind of thing for the lol because it's all so remote and fairly unaccountable.

 

[jonajuna]

Yes, I was going to mention identity theft and cloning.

People who steal identities don't just want to rinse your bank account.

They might want to open an account with a different bank, get a job, work, get paid, rent a flat, get a tenancy agreement in your name, go to the doctors and get free health care, enrol their children into school, if you've passed your driving test, they can drive, even if they've never had a lesson but a mate taught them in Asda's car park...

this happens already, the id card system might help prevent that

the current system of at least as easily forged and/or stolen paper documents that have little in the way of inherent security, enables all these things and more to be done by people without much technical savvy. it currently really is very easy to get a birth certificate that isnt yours... dodgy passports can be picked up for a few grand (or so i am led to believe). combine those 2 documents with a utility bill from a dustbin (who here shreds/burns all their mail?) and presto, all you need to gain a bank acct, a driving license application and so on

having 3 teirs of security (printed details/biometrics in chip/biometrics and id details on seperate database) must make it more secure. im not a tech so i wont argue about ICT security issues, but most corporate level and certainly governmental level ICT security (other than sending cdroms in the post or leaving laptops on trains!!) should defeat all but the most serious and hardened crims.... no?

They're not necessarily people wanting to steal or commit fraud, they're more likely to be people living in the grey economy who just want to live and get by living a kind of 'law abiding' after a fashion life.

this grey population/economy is, i think, the easist thing to prevent with (assuming fairly robust) photo/biometric id systems

What if you're a teacher applying for a job in a catholic school and your dopellganger has worked, legitimately and paid tax and national insurance while working in the adult entertainment industry and the school you're applying to has access not just to your CV or whatever you chose to put on an application form, but your entire employment record because it's all on the database... Hell, what if your identity hasn't been stolen but you paid your way through uni pole-dancing in Spearmint Rhino and now every employer you want to work for can check your full employment history, not just the edited highlights you put on your CV.

the current data protection act already factors in a "need to know"

our privacy laws regarding who can access what data about whom, when and for what reason are really quite robust. BUT, this i think is the area for discussion and campaign.. to ensure they remain robust and enforced.

the id card is just that, the card isnt the issue, the issue is the data and access to it

separate discussions in my mind

on an aside from that, it is a bit disheartening to see that people are so distrustful of official bodies. i have the ability to access the medical records of pretty much anyone. i have never accessed the information of anyone i didnt need to, not even my own... why? because it isnt my business and it would be an abuse of trust (as well as would endanger my job and career)... it simply isnt "right" for me to do so

i like to think most people would behave the same, certainly everyone i have ever worked with has been.

maybe im being naive? or maybe im just not paranoid enough. maybe as i say...... i just accept im not really that important in the great scheme of things

 

[jonajuna]

And what about all the data entry monkeys paid peanuts. There will probably loads of them working through an agency on some kind of temp login, because the IT dept can't cope with the staff turnover.

What do you think will happen with a load of poorly paid disaffected young people doing a boring repetitive job in the summer holidays?

I'm guessing they might have competitions about who can make the most outrageous amendment to a file.

Hey Dave, I just gave this 80-year-old granny a criminal record. She's done a ten stretch for dealing!!

That's nothing mate, I.ve made it so this vicar's been done for kerb crawling now and I've given him syphillis as well.

Hey, d'you remember Mr Smith who used to give me such a hard time in Maths class... He's applying for his pension, what d'you reckon I wipe out half his NI contributions so if only gets half a pension?

I reckon there will be idiots who do that kind of thing for the lol because it's all so remote and fairly unaccountable.

i think ive covered a bit of that in previous post but for the rest

why would the data entrants be any different than the people doing it now? fuck ups, intentional or not exist which ever system you employ

looking at current systems, i can check the content of and apply to correct CRB, credit file, medical records and dept work pensions files as it is (thats the ones i know of)

i really dont think it could be a situation of one missed keystroke and your labelled a kiddy fiddler for life... thats the stuff of hollywood films


but maybe im wrong, who really knows? does it really matter? from what ive read in another thread, we will all be sat with kevin costner on his catamaran on a world of water inside 30 years

 

[mincepie]

Ethics aside for a moment, given all the "fail" that the NHS/GP IT system is and other large scale IT projects , could it actually work for real?? Or just become a white elephant? At a large cost.

Mind you thats short term I guess, as technology progresses - 10years time - it won't be such an issue...

 

[Azrael]

I reckon there will be idiots who do that kind of thing for the lol because it's all so remote and fairly unaccountable.

It's quite possible that some nasty piece of work will do what you say, but after a few of the most outrageous cock-ups come to light, they'll probably put an end to it by a handful of prosecutions followed by warehousing alongside Mr Murderer and Mr Rapist.

I'm more worried about unintentional errors made without evil intent. Nothing can wipe out those, but Labour seem convinced the system will be infallible because of the technology: forgetting it's tech programmed and operated by flawed humans.

This inability to acknowledge the existence of imperfection is a running theme with our idealist government. Must border on a pathology.

 

[ska invita]

What did Broon say about ID cards today then?

 

[weltweit]

What did Broon say about ID cards today then?

He said "No compulsory ID Cards in the next parliament"..

Which in laymans terms means, the project is still on .

ID Cards under labour are a go project!

 

[SpookyFrank]

What did Broon say about ID cards today then?

No compulsory ID cards during the next parliament. Nothing new basically. The plan was always to roll them out gradually and then make life harder and harder for thpse without cards as the uptake increases. In fact that process has already started with the all the challenge 21 (now 25 IIRC) nonsense.

It doesn't really matter what Brown says thought does it? He's fucked. Political roadkill.

 

[Ted Striker]

He said "No compulsory ID Cards in the next parliament*"..

Which in laymans terms means, the project is still on .

ID Cards under labour are a go project!

(*...for British citizens)

Which, as promptly pointed out by the BBC, was always the intention (or at least was the case before the speech))

 

[trevhagl]

I'm sceptical, but not even I think ID cards will be used that extensively!

I think they're a bad idea, stupidly expensive and can't see how they will actually help prevent crime or fraud from happening plus we ought to already have the existing technology more or less already.

Mmmmm....my lass had to go to the local shopping centre to get a gift card for one of the people leaving work. There was quite a bit of money on it and they asked her for ID, HER ID not her employers!! They said it was to do with money laundering!! Quite why anyone would put money on a card they could spend in the very same shops it can be used for, is a mystery but it shows you the way this country is going....

 

[moon23]

this Orwellian argument

what makes you so significant that anyone really cares about what you do?

look at all the discussion on here, how many of you route through multiple anon proxies? thought so, just a few of the ultra paranoid

im sure if "the man" wanted to get you, making use of all the information you freely volunteer up every day on the interweb, mobile phone, landline, when using your debit card, when you are photographed on avergae 300 times aday, number plate read by countless roadside cameras etc

i accept and share concerns about the issue of security of data within the chip on the card, im not suggesting that any serious crim or terrorist or the like would find it more than possible to manipulate the system, but it would be just one more hurdle for them and with regards immigration/travel, s is likely to offer a higher level of security that the "papers" we make use of now

Data-sharing systems damage people's life’s without any malicious intention from 'the man'. It’s about these system making arbitrary judgments and observations that are then logged, acted upon and shared between governmental bureaucracies that govern your life. It’s also about having to spend a life reporting your data to such a system or risking fines and then dealing with the fallout from their cock-ups.

The data-log of when the card is used will create another surveillance record of people’s life’s that is easily retrievable but that’s just one small aspect with what’s wrong with the scheme.

 

[Idaho]

jonajuna - You either believe that citizens should answer to the state whenever it demands, or the state should answer to citizens according to law.

If you believe the former then no amount of debate or discussion will dissuade you from ID cards.

 

[weltweit]

jonajuna - You either believe that citizens should answer to the state whenever it demands, or the state should answer to citizens according to law.

If you believe the former then no amount of debate or discussion will dissuade you from ID cards.

It is not just that.

I don't want to live in a country where I am required to carry identification papers with me at any time in case I am required to identify myself.

In the last two years I have had to identify myself once, to the landlord of the house I am now living in for the purposes of reference checks.

Once!

Why do I need an ID card when only once in two years have I had to identify myself.

Am I likely to be stopped on the street and asked my identity, it would seem under the ID proposals that is just the sort of thing the ID card brigade think will happen. Well I am agin it full stop!

 

[moon23]

i think ive covered a bit of that in previous post but for the rest

why would the data entrants be any different than the people doing it now? fuck ups, intentional or not exist which ever system you employ

looking at current systems, i can check the content of and apply to correct CRB, credit file, medical records and dept work pensions files as it is (thats the ones i know of)

i really dont think it could be a situation of one missed keystroke and your labelled a kiddy fiddler for life... thats the stuff of hollywood films


but maybe im wrong, who really knows? does it really matter? from what ive read in another thread, we will all be sat with kevin costner on his catamaran on a world of water inside 30 years

Yes you are wrong, there are countless instances of people’s lives being ruined by the database state. Maybe only in Hollywood or very rarely does this result in people being locked up falsey but it does result in people facing financial difficulty due to problems with credit ratings, and problems finding jobs because of CRB check errors.

Thousands of people a year get wrongly turned down for jobs because of CRB checks that come back saying they have committed and offense they haven't. The High Court has ruled on a similar case where a small business owner’s life was ruined by incorrect information on a court database that damages cannot be claimed for incorrect information on the system.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/05/moj_andre_power/


In fact under the Identity Cards Act you are responsible for ensuring the accuracy of your own data, even though you don’t have the power to change it or input it yourself.

Then there are the growing number of cases (that we know about) where employees have accessed information on systems for their own ends.

Of course fuck-ups happen but currently if the bank or DVLA messes up you just prove their mistake with another form of ID. When ID cards are the only true form of ID and that’s wrong it will be a huge problem trying to disprove what the official register thinks is true.

 

[weltweit]

And anyhow, I now have a photo driving licence, and actually (the once in the post above is wrong sorry) I was asked to ID myself to get my Library card, but the photo driving licence was sufficient for that....

So, twice in the last two years once for references, once for a library card.

And what I already have was sufficient for that.

I don't want or need an ID card!

 

[moon23]

It is not just that.

I don't want to live in a country where I am required to carry identification papers with me at any time in case I am required to identify myself.

In the last two years I have had to identify myself once, to the landlord of the house I am now living in for the purposes of reference checks.

Once!

Why do I need an ID card when only once in two years have I had to identify myself.

Am I likely to be stopped on the street and asked my identity, it would seem under the ID proposals that is just the sort of thing the ID card brigade think will happen. Well I am agin it full stop!

If the government has it's way you will need to be proving your ID for a lot more things. For instance for many years on IPS website they have the example of picking up a parcel from the post office as an instance when you would allow your finger to be scanned to get your post.

I think they finally twigged that perhaps they were being a bit too honest with their realy intentions and this was putting people off. So now they are sold as being voluntary and to help you buy booze (something it's becomming more and more difficult to do). They create reasons why you need to prove ID, then promote ID as a means of making your life easier, as without them they have made it harder.

 

[Idaho]

It is not just that.

I don't want to live in a country where I am required to carry identification papers with me at any time in case I am required to identify myself.

In the last two years I have had to identify myself once, to the landlord of the house I am now living in for the purposes of reference checks.

Once!

Why do I need an ID card when only once in two years have I had to identify myself.

Am I likely to be stopped on the street and asked my identity, it would seem under the ID proposals that is just the sort of thing the ID card brigade think will happen. Well I am agin it full stop!

You are just repeating what i said but in a flabby, less concise way

 

[moon23]

http://www.no2id.net/idcardcon/

Get behind this new campaign and lets put a stop to them.

 

[weltweit]

You are just repeating what i said but in a flabby, less concise way

Verbose, I prefer verbosity

 

[weltweit]

Anyhow you can be sure they will cock it up.

Just like they cocked up driving licences.

In the old days we had a green paper licence and that was it. It was your licence.

Now we have two items, one card with photo (which can fit in a purse/wallet) and a bit of paper.

It / they are only valid as a driving licence if you have both card and paper together.

So from one simple piece of paper to TWO items ... double as complicated

You can be sure they will cock ID cards up in some similar way..

 

[trevhagl]

Anyhow you can be sure they will cock it up.

Just like they cocked up driving licences.

In the old days we had a green paper licence and that was it. It was your licence.

Now we have two items, one card with photo (which can fit in a purse/wallet) and a bit of paper.

It / they are only valid as a driving licence if you have both card and paper together.

So from one simple piece of paper to TWO items ... double as complicated

You can be sure they will cock ID cards up in some similar way..

"double as complicated" would make a good New Labour manifesto!!