Smoking ban - yea or nay?

[Roadkill]

The separate rooms would have to be very well sealed. Otherwise, the rest of the pub or restaurant would still be polluted with smoke - in the same way that non-smoking areas in pubs, that allow smoking in other areas, are now. I doubt it would be practical.

I'm not referring to separate areas - which as you say don't work - but separate rooms, with a door. I don't see why workplaces and pubs shouldn't be allowed to provide one.

This is the thing that irritates most about the whole smoking issue. It's being blown out of proportion. No-one in their right mind disputes that working all night in a smoky room is bad for you, but it's equally stupid not to recognise that the effect of tobacco smoke is cumulative - and the odd whiff of it is not going to do you any measurable harm whatsoever.

I'm reminded of longdoggy's comment on a similar thread years ago ... "What are you? Some sort of Victorian maiden who's going to go into a maidenly swoon at the first whiff of baccy smoke? Here, borrow this nice little lace fan and I'll call the maid to come and loosen your stays."

It also remains true that the pubs that will lose out from the ban are the ones without beer gardens: those that have some exterior space will be the winners. The argument that a "separate rooms" policy would advantage big pubs is therefore missing the point. There'll be winners and losers whatever the policy.

But I repeat, it's hardly the most pressing issue of our times.

 

[gentlegreen]

My first instinct is to say "whoopee !" as I detest tobacco smoke ... but it puts paid to any chance of Dutch - style coffeeshops in the UK - though I believe they allow tobacco in those so I wouldn't want to go anyway.

One would have thought they could have allowed private smoking clubs though - given that I support shooting galleries for heroin addicts.

 

[Errol's son]

One would have thought they could have allowed private smoking clubs though - given that I support shooting galleries for heroin addicts.

I believe they do..

That is why MPs will still smoke in that 24hr bar in the Houses of Parliament and celebrities and rich folk will still smoke in SoHo House and other private clubs.

 

[TAE]

Personally, after a nice evening down the pub, I prefer going home without stinking of other peoples' cigarettes.

 

[8ball]

Personally, after a nice evening down the pub, I prefer going home without stinking of other people's cigarettes.

Oh my fucking Christ - is this what's allowed to pass for an argument therse days?

 

[TAE]

Of course, why not?

Laws are should be about what people are prepared to put up with. Balancing peoples wishes & needs.

 

[8ball]

I prefer to get home from work without smelling of car fumes - solution:: ban cars.

I'm not one for gambling - solution: ban casinos.

Penny dropping yet?

 

[TAE]

If people could avoid using their car and/or if cars could be kept away from the non-driving public, that would be great.

And yes I am in favour of banning casinos, but that's another debate entirely.

We live in a democracy (allegedly) so it's all about what the majority of people want, for better or for worse.

 

[shagnasty]

i will do what millions of others will do and not frequent cinemas public houses bingo halls and all other places were a minority government says i cant smoke.there should be some provision for smokers ,smoking is not a criminal act yet.

 

[colacubes]

I'm a smoker and have just got back from a party in a non smoking venue. I have to say it was great - there wasn't a heavy fug of smoke which covered everything and I'm amazed having just got home that I don't stink of fags.

At a similar party in a smoking venue I would have easily smoked 20 fags tonight but I ended up having about 3 which I popped out for.

 

[8ball]

We live in a democracy (allegedly) so it's all about what the majority of people want, for better or for worse.

No it fucking isn't - sheesh!

Read a little about what democracy is before coming out with this cack - do a quick search on 'tyranny of the majority'.

 

[TAE]

That'll be why just about every democracy in the world has a system where the party with the most votes forms the government.

 

[8ball]

Go to fucking school for fuck's sake.

A system of Government where majority opinion can overrule all dissenting voices with no breathing room for minority concerns is actually called fascism.

 

[mk12]

Why are you not answering any points others have made supporting the ban?

 

[8ball]

Why are you not answering any points others have made supporting the ban?

Most of them are based on a pathetic strawman argument, a poor analysis of relative risk, general moral illiteracy and a scary cultural amnesia about what freedom is and what it means (I believe there's a program about this on later which might be quite good).

Do you have a particular point you'd like to start with?

 

[JHE]

Do you have a particular point you'd like to start with?

I'd like you to explain why you think workers in pubs and restaurants should not have the right to a fairly unpolluted environment.

 

[8ball]

I'd like you to explain why you think workers in pubs and restaurants should not have the right to a fairly unpolluted environment.

That's more a piece of rhetoric than a 'point'. Sounds like something off a New Labour website.

Some jobs involve risks. Such as working on the motorways. No one is forced to work on the motorways yet these guys work in a polluted environment. Is this a problem? Possibly, but you don't deal with it by banning motorways. It's ludicrous non-logic.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We live in a democracy (allegedly) so it's all about what the majority of people want, for better or for worse.

That is a misunderstanding of democracy. Tyranny of the majority is not what any of us should want.

If I wish to open an establishment in which I allow people to smoke, all adults fully aware of the harm they are doing to themselves, then this should be of no concern to the majority as they can always choose not to come in. My mum and dad are classic examples of this - part of the majority that supports a total ban, they hate pubs and won't go in them anyway. In other words, it's none of their damn business.

As to the argument about protecting workers, if you don't want to work in a smokey environment, don't work in a pub. There are plenty of other jobs to do, most of them better paid. Use some initiative. I dislike laws which cater for the feeble-minded at the expense of the rest of us.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd like you to explain why you think workers in pubs and restaurants should not have the right to a fairly unpolluted environment.

ANd workers in chip shops shouldn't have to breathe the carcinogenic fumes from the fat either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I am worried that the ban on smoking will kill pub culture in this country.

In terms of public health, not providing a public space in which to smoke leads to more people smoking at home. 10% of pubs in Ireland have closed since the ban, while sales in offies have gone up. This means more people, including importantly children, being exposed to smoke in poorly ventilated environments. The evidence for the damage caused by passive smoking is weak. Where it is strongest is the evidence suggesting that young children, whose respiratory systems are still developing, are damaged by passive smoking in the home.

As a matter of public health policy, smokers should be encouraged to use public spaces provided for them to smoke rather than relaxing at home with a fag.

 

[mk12]

ANd workers in chip shops shouldn't have to breathe the carcinogenic fumes from the fat either.

Does fat smell kill as many people as smoke then?

 

[8ball]

Does fat smell kill as many people as smoke then?

It's the first I'd heard of carnicogenic fat fumes - might Google a bit . . .

 

[TAE]

Go to fucking school for fuck's sake.

Been there done that.

A system of Government where majority opinion can overrule all dissenting voices with no breathing room for minority concerns is actually called fascism.

Talk about straw men.

 

[8ball]

Actually it looks like chip fat fumes ARE killing roughly as many people as passive smoking in pubs

No statistically detectable effects in either case - null hypothesis rules the day.

 

[TAE]

That is a misunderstanding of democracy. Tyranny of the majority is not what any of us should want.

Tyranny is a loaded word. Besides, there is no such thing as a single majority which might rule over a single minority. Everyone is in a majority in one context and in a minority in another context. So the wishes of majorities and minorities are balanced. Never-the-less, it is true that the various majority views will shape the various laws in a democracy. It's perfectly natural.

 

[8ball]

It's perfectly natural.

Another one of those phrases that crops up when someone wants to extend what are considered to be the legitimate uses of force.

<shudders>

You're going to say something about 'human nature' next, aren't you?

 

[TAE]

What are you going on about now?

 

[8ball]

What are you going on about now?

Oh dear, this is exactly what I've been going on about.

I have these arguments with people and sooner or later it'll be "What do you mean by 'freedom'?" or some such question.

The meanings of words are changing too rapidly for my old brain to cope with these days

 

[TAE]

Don't start these arguments then.

 

[8ball]

Don't start these arguments then.

I didn't even start any argument.

BBC2 9pm - should be good with any luck.