Siouxsie and the Banshees, unappreciated?

[AmateurAgitator]

Sadly some hyper-PC nonsense accusations on this thread tbh, not uncommon on these forums unfortunately. Do people seriously think Siouxsie and the Banshees were antisemites or national socialists?

Its a real shame that people can completely misunderstand and misinterpret lyrics like this aswell. The nazi imagery idea originated with Malcolm McLaren ofcourse, himself being part jewish from his mum's side of the family. The idea came from the fact that the war was so drummed into people in this country and was used to tell people that they should be so grateful - despite everything being so shit. So what could be more shocking and effective as a big fuck you to all that than using the swastika etc as much of a bad idea as it was at the same time. I think thats a good explanation of why it happened.

 

[Bus Honeygun]

The idea came from the fact that the war was so drummed into people in this country and was used to tell people that they should be so grateful - despite everything being so shit. So what could be more shocking and effective as a big fuck you to all that than using the swastika etc as much of a bad idea as it was at the same time. I think thats a good explanation of why it happened.

That and a few too many watches of Cabaret. It was all a bit zeitgeist. You had Jews like Joey Ramone singing about being a Nazi schatze with another Jew (and holocaust refugee) on drums. Stupid stuff, but not actual fascism.

 

[andysays]

Sadly some hyper-PC nonsense accusations on this thread tbh, not uncommon on these forums unfortunately. Do people seriously think Siouxsie and the Banshees were antisemites or national socialists?

Its a real shame that people can completely misunderstand and misinterpret lyrics like this aswell. The nazi imagery idea originated with Malcolm McLaren ofcourse, himself being part jewish from his mum's side of the family. The idea came from the fact that the war was so drummed into people in this country and was used to tell people that they should be so grateful - despite everything being so shit. So what could be more shocking and effective as a big fuck you to all that than using the swastika etc as much of a bad idea as it was at the same time. I think thats a good explanation of why it happened.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Siouxsie was an antisemite or a nazi, just that some of her* flirting with nazi imagery and provocative lyrics might have been unwise or misguided.

And I'm pretty sure that she subsequently knowledged that herself.

* not just her, of course, it unfortunately became a bit of a thing for quite a few in the early days of punk, even if it was intended to shock or whatever rather than being a genuine endorsement of a far right position.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think anyone has suggested that Siouxsie was an antisemite or a nazi, just that some of her* flirting with nazi imagery and provocative lyrics might have been unwise or misguided.

And I'm pretty sure that she subsequently knowledged that herself.

* not just her, of course, it unfortunately became a bit of a thing for quite a few in the early days of punk, even if it was intended to shock or whatever rather than being a genuine endorsement of a far right position.

gary bushell comes close in his book 'hoolies'

 

[killer b]

Sadly some hyper-PC nonsense accusations on this thread tbh,

could you quote these posts? I've just looked through the thread and can't find them. Just one person saying they were uncomfortable with the nazi iconography, which is fair enough. Oh and one other person quoting some unambiguously racist lyrics, again fair enough - the whole of Hong Kong Garden seems eyewateringly crass from this distance

 

[andysays]

gary bushell comes close in his book 'hoolies'

I was talking about posters on this thread, TBH. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

And I've never really paid much attention to Bushell's opinions on music, politics or anything else, frankly.

 

[Yossarian]

She just sounds a bit thick, tbh. From a 2005 interview:

“The culture around then,” she explains, “it was Monty Python, Basil Fawlty, Freddie Starr, The Producers- ‘Springtime For Hitler’.” She kicks out her leg in a mock goosestep. “It was very much Salon Kitty. It was used as a glamour thing. And you know what?” she sighs.” I have to be honest but I do like the Nazi uniform. I shouldn’t say it but I think it’s a very good-looking uniform.”

You shouldn’t say it for fear of upsetting the PC mob?

“Yeah. It’s almost like you feel like saying,’Aw, come on. Nazis – they’re brilliant.’ Political correctness becomes imprisoning. It’s very – what’s the word? It’s being very Nazi! It’s ironic but this PC-ness is so fucking fascist. In America they’re especially touchy about Nazis and it’s so Nazi! You go to LA and it’s so segregated. It’s very Nazi and the irony is they don’t get it. They don’t realise how Nazi they are about taking offence to mentioning the word Nazi.”

 

[ska invita]

I don't think anyone has suggested that Siouxsie was an antisemite

" song featured the line "Too many Jews for my liking". This, says Siouxsie, was a metaphor for too many fat businessmen waiting to pounce, suck the youth from and cast aside new talent."

so a metaphorical antisemite then

 

[Pickman's model]

I was talking about posters on this thread, TBH. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

And I've never really paid much attention to Bushell's opinions on music, politics or anything else, frankly.

back in the day his views were worth reading. not for the agreeing with obvs but representative of a tendency on the right.

 

[andysays]

" song featured the line "Too many Jews for my liking". This, says Siouxsie, was a metaphor for too many fat businessmen waiting to pounce, suck the youth from and cast aside new talent."

so a metaphorical antisemite then

When I made my post, I don't think anyone had suggested on this thread that Siouxsie was an antisemite, but if you want to argue that now, fill your boots.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

could you quote these posts? I've just looked through the thread and can't find them. Just one person saying they were uncomfortable with the nazi iconography, which is fair enough. Oh and one other person quoting some unambiguously racist lyrics, again fair enough - the whole of Hong Kong Garden seems eyewateringly crass from this distance

I think you did find the posts - I believe they were the ones you mentioned. Hong Kong Garden is a song about an NF assault on a Chinese takeaway in London by the name of Hong Kong Garden. I am of the view that the original 'unambiguously racist' lyrics of the song mentioned were taken literally when they were not supposed to be and taken out of context, thats what I would imagine. I don't believe that Siousxie Soux was or is an antisemite and I find that accusation ridiculous. I've explained why the nazi imagery/iconography was used, it was no doubt ill advised but the reasons for its use were not racist or antisemitic or pro-far right.

 

[ska invita]

When I made my post, I don't think anyone had suggested on this thread that Siouxsie was an antisemite, but if you want to argue that now, fill your boots.

well a poster said there was an anti-Semitic lyric
and her explanation is anti-Semitic in itself
Does that make her an anti-Semite, at that time. To some extent, clearly yes

 

[andysays]

I think you did find the posts - I believe they were the ones you mentioned. Hong Kong garden is about an NF assault on a Chinese takeaway by the name of Hong Kong Garden. I am of the view that the 'unambiguously racist' lyrics wre taken literally and taken out of context. I've explained why the nazi imagery/iconography was used.

FWIW, that's my understanding as well.

I don't think those lyrics are actually racist in intent, but I do think it's very easy for them to be misinterpreted and taken literally, particularly given some of the ill-advised (IMO) flirting with Nazi imagery.

 

[Griff]

Just bought a turntable again, so have been digging through my old vinyl.

Played The Scream for the first time in ages the other night and it sounded great.

Another recent Siouxsie sensation was seeing Last Night in Soho at the cinema, Happy House has never sounded so good!

I did actually see them in 1978 when I was 12, not that I can remember much about the gig.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

FWIW, that's my understanding as well.

I don't think those lyrics are actually racist in intent, but I do think it's very easy for them to be misinterpreted and taken literally, particularly given some of the ill-advised (IMO) flirting with Nazi imagery.

Yeah I can definitely see how it would have been misinterpretted, same with the nazi imagery, and I can certainly see how that would have been misunderstood and also caused offense. And using nazi iconography/imagery is not something I would do.

 

[TopCat]

Hmm, if the Sisters of Mercy were proto-goth I was wondering who actually counted as proper Goth.

Southern Death Cult.

 

[ice-is-forming]

I went to the same school as Siouxsie Sioux, she was 5 years older than me. Early punk days and the Bromley contingent etc. I was slightly in awe of her, and remember one afternoon in about 1975, when we both got stuck together in a lift in Debenhams for over an hour. She shared her chewing gum with me. We also drank in the same pubs n went to the same parties. I was about 13 but my boyfriend was the same age as her. She had a big following locally when the banshees took off, and a lot of them were NF skinheads who used to do a lot of seig heiling at all her gigs. She didn't encourage or discourage it, that's what punk was about back then... finding ways to offend our parents generation who'd lived through the war. I honestly don't think those were her politics, it was just the shock value

 

[killer b]

I don't believe that Siousxie Soux was or is an antisemite and I find that accusation ridiculous.

That accusation hasn't been made here. Someone said the nazi stuff made her uncomfortable is all. That's ok isn't it? Presumably it was meant to make people feel uncomfortable?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

She's like spiritual godmother of the industrial music/fascism thread...

 

[manji]

Best most inventive “ punk” miles ahead of glorified pub rock like the Pistols and the Clash.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

That accusation hasn't been made here. Someone said the nazi stuff made her uncomfortable is all. That's ok isn't it? Presumably it was meant to make people feel uncomfortable?

A very patronising post

 

[ska invita]

Great thread

 

[killer b]

Fuck off you moronic cockring. Don't patronise me.

How is a fairly mild expression of discomfort about nazi stuff anything like an accusation of antisemitism? I don't get it.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

That accusation hasn't been made here. Someone said the nazi stuff made her uncomfortable is all. That's ok isn't it? Presumably it was meant to make people feel uncomfortable?

An unnecessary, incorrect and smug post. Probably bait.

 

[killer b]

Pretty shit bait, it's take 15 years for someone to bite

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Pretty shit bait, it's take 15 years for someone to bite

This post doesn't actually make any sense at all, but then theres alot wrong with the rest of your posts that I've seen today.

 

[oryx]

I She didn't encourage or discourage it, that's what punk was about back then... finding ways to offend our parents generation who'd lived through the war. I honestly don't think those were her politics, it was just the shock value

This is how I remember it.

Rightly or wrongly, we are judging musicians of forty years ago by today's values.

Anyway, musically Siouxsie and The Banshees were a great band. I haven't listened to them for years but should.

 

[editor]

Time hasn't been so kind to the band's image and anti-establishment posturings, but the music is still great.

 

[Chilli.s]

Listened to Juju again recently, and saw them play it live way back, very dark but undeniably powerful still today. John McGeochs guitar playing is fantastic

 

[Chilli.s]

Get an eyeful of this one:

Like looking at the 30s from the 70s, and it is 44 years so bound to be pretty fuckin strange to us today