Sinn Fein British agent shot dead

[zoltan]

You do also know that you now public leaders were involved with the British security services on a first name basis right from the start ..... even the dynamic duo at the top in SF ( one of whom still refutes he was a member in the PIRA - yeah, OK Gerry.... ).............seems more and more like a game of Risk, but with real bodies on both sides rather than points ............this aint 3rd hand gossip either. More playing fields of Eton than Che Guevara in Bolivia. A very cosy setup for all involved.

This bother could have been halted a LONG time ago , but for reasons of economic enrichment & control, it was allowed to escalate by both sides.Both had much to gain from a drawn out war.

Mugged.and you dont even realise it now.and you still trot out the same well worn version of reason & a sprinkling of belligerance.......youve been used

 

[cemertyone]

......The same way that PIRA young recruits went and did what they were told by their commanders - the punishment beatings & executions in the dark 70/80's carried out by the Republicans were just the same setup.

Its all history & getting bogged down in the semantics wont do any good - 30/50/300 years ago - its mostly history & we cant change it now.

Bottm line - NI is still fragmented & a few people at the tp - the same controlling elites - still run the show & are doing very well out of it.

You have been royally mugged & the calls for further action are a diversion form the truth - the war criminals are still out there, getting richer by the day & yet you support their twisted calls of loyalty.

Mugged good and proper.

Would you care to elaborate on whom you suspect are these " War criminals" that you speak off.
I don`t for a single second think that i ( or others like me) have been " mugged" by anyone. If you actually take a look at the political developments that have occuried (as a consequence of the Provisionals campaign),I.E.
1.One man one vote.
2.The rejection of the old discrimnation that was practised by successive loyalist administrations ( with the blind-eye turning from the Mother Parliament) in areas such as employment/housing/gerrymandering the elections etc etc
3. The realisation that the old " No surrender" attitudes are dead and buried forever.
I could go on listing these things all day.
As for your comments regarding history..well i think it was Bob Marley who commented that " A people who don`t know their history is like a tree without roots".
4.

 

[cemertyone]

You do also know that you now public leaders were involved with the British security services on a first name basis right from the start ..... even the dynamic duo at the top in SF ( one of whom still refutes he was a member in the PIRA - yeah, OK Gerry.... ).............seems more and more like a game of Risk, but with real bodies on both sides rather than points ............this aint 3rd hand gossip either. More playing fields of Eton than Che Guevara in Bolivia. A very cosy setup for all involved.

This bother could have been halted a LONG time ago , but for reasons of economic enrichment & control, it was allowed to escalate by both sides.Both had much to gain from a drawn out war.

Mugged.and you dont even realise it now.and you still trot out the same well worn version of reason & a sprinkling of belligerance.......youve been used

It`s becoming very obvious that you have little or no understanding of events both historical and contempory regarding what has gone on over the last 25 years in the North of Ireland. West belfast is a very long way from eton my friend and your perspective ( like many here) is based on the old addage of " their just as bad as each other" mentality. One that has been carefully groomed into the british population by the governing elite.

 

[zoltan]

It`s becoming very obvious that you have little or no understanding of events both historical and contempory regarding what has gone on over the last 25 years in the North of Ireland. West belfast is a very long way from eton my friend and your perspective ( like many here) is based on the old addage of " their just as bad as each other" mentality. One that has been carefully groomed into the british population by the governing elite.

As I say captain, youve been mugged and you still dont realise it.Your so called leaders have been using the streets for their own ends - they are politicians after all.

BTW, I am not a Daily mail reader with a skeletal knowledge on the subject either.

 

[zoltan]

Would you care to elaborate on whom you suspect are these " War criminals" that you speak off.
I don`t for a single second think that i ( or others like me) have been " mugged" by anyone. If you actually take a look at the political developments that have occuried (as a consequence of the Provisionals campaign),I.E.
1.One man one vote.
2.The rejection of the old discrimnation that was practised by successive loyalist administrations ( with the blind-eye turning from the Mother Parliament) in areas such as employment/housing/gerrymandering the elections etc etc
3. The realisation that the old " No surrender" attitudes are dead and buried forever.
I could go on listing these things all day.
As for your comments regarding history..well i think it was Bob Marley who commented that " A people who don`t know their history is like a tree without roots".
4.

Both sides my man, both sides.

I cannot dispute what happened on the bad old days & am not here to go down that path- well trodden & a cul de sac for any discussion.

"History" ? there is no such thing as "History" - rather an assemblage of events & actions that can be interpreted one way or another.I am not orthodox/ revisionist or post revisonist - its too easy to adopt an outlook & make the facts fit .

The discrimination you mention would have changed whether there was blood spilled or not - your rich leaders are selling logical societal development as a result of their actions & their leadership - you really believe this ?

I admire your dogged adherence to the official line - it is commendable, but sometimes you have to stand back and look at things objectively.

 

[cemertyone]

As I say captain, youve been mugged and you still dont realise it.Your so called leaders have been using the streets for their own ends - they are politicians after all.

BTW, I am not a Daily mail reader with a skeletal knowledge on the subject either.

Answer the questions i`ve posed to you..telling me i`ve been mugged is all very well but you see it does help if you actually explain to people where it is they have gone wrong. i could be wrong here but i will go out on a limb and say it sounds to me like your an ex forces boy yourself. And really if you where, it shows in the few posts that you have made here.
So the higher echolons of the Bitish military regime happened to know Martin and Gerrys first names...and that indicates what exactly in your book?.
i would also imagine that they also knew pretty much most of the individuals who " where involved" again..what are you saying.
that there was a compact between the british military and the leadership of S.F. and the provo`s.....well that will come as a surprise to many who had to indure the " Converyer-belt judical process" of Castlereagh...Diplockock Courts and on to the holiday camps of the H-Blocks...

 

[zoltan]

Not Ex-forces or Bill either! I do have my standards.......

You must be aware of the regular F2F contact between the opposing factions right the way through the entire 30 odd years - not informers or whateve John leCarre speak that the dailys are using with such abandon at the minute either......

 

[cemertyone]

I really admire your belief in " Societal developments " and onward to a glourious and equal future for all citizens.If that where the case then why were such organisations such as the office to prevent discrimination fought against by our Unionist cousins tooth and nail.They simply dont like the concept of equality..they cant understand it you see.
Why where simple acts such as being able to vote in local elections ( a process accepted by every other democracy in the world as the norm for all citizens) seen by the unionists as so radical for catholics. did you know that right up until 1968 that if you did not actually OWN the home in which you lived your were unelegible to vote??? so that the protestant landlord 9 who owned x number of homes in the street actually accriued all the votes for those properties!!
I think you fail to understand the Unionist mind set my friend. they have had to be dragged screming and shouting to the table and if it where not for the campaign of violence that occuried then we wouldnt even be where we are.

 

[zoltan]

I really admire your belief in " Societal developments " and onward to a glourious and equal future for all citizens.If that where the case then why were such organisations such as the office to prevent discrimination fought against by our Unionist cousins tooth and nail.They simply dont like the concept of equality..they cant understand it you see.
Why where simple acts such as being able to vote in local elections ( a process accepted by every other democracy in the world as the norm for all citizens) seen by the unionists as so radical for catholics. did you know that right up until 1968 that if you did not actually OWN the home in which you lived your were unelegible to vote??? so that the protestant landlord 9 who owned x number of homes in the street actually accriued all the votes for those properties!!
I think you fail to understand the Unionist mind set my friend. they have had to be dragged screming and shouting to the table and if it where not for the campaign of violence that occuried then we wouldnt even be where we are.

1968 - it wasnt exactly a time of liberation for most people - think Homosexuality/ Abortion/ Rackmanism etc etc etc.

Do you really think that such apalling practices specific to NI would have continued unless the PIRA got involved ?

 

[cemertyone]

Not Ex-forces or Bill either! I do have my standards.......

You must be aware of the regular F2F contact between the opposing factions right the way through the entire 30 odd years - not informers or whateve John leCarre speak that the dailys are using with such abandon at the minute either......

Yes i`m more than aware of those contacts that you speak off.Thats normal in any situation such as the one we went through. If you look at the history of the UK`s armed forces in conflict situations such as Cyprus/Aden/palestain etc etc you will see that they attempted to make and maintain contact with the very forces they faced.
From the very early days of Gerry and co ( being flown from the Maze to Chelsea to meet and chat with Lord Whitelaw..who had tea in our house once(long story) right through to Alex Reid..the mountain climber from MI5..and the work of the methodist churchs....it all works on different layers at different times.
Finally i would add that it was Mrs T herself who gave approval for MI5 to maintain and develop contacts with the provisionals..even while at the same time se was telling the electorate that she was going to " deny them the oxygen of puplicity"..

 

[cemertyone]

1968 -
Do you really think that such apalling practices specific to NI would have continued unless the PIRA got involved ?

I think your mis-understanding some thing very fundamental regarding the development of the Provisionals..
The current phase of " The Troubles " can be traced back to the demands of students/republicans and other groups ( initally comprising a wide section of political and religious groups) for equal rights for all citizens.
We where not asking for special treatment and it was not even a demand that as the minority population in the north catholics should somehow be recieving preferential treatment at the expense of others.
But you see the re-action of the Unionist political elite ( in conievence with successive Westminister governments) made a violent confrontation inevitable.
By the time that direct rule was imposed upon the unionists the situation had travelled that far that what had initally began as a campaign for equality had by that stage turned to outright rejection of the state itself. The Provisionals were very adapt at turning that to their own advantage. by the time concessions where offered to the old status quo it was seen by many from within our community as " To little to late".

 

[TeeJay]

...people like him were responsible for giving information on others that resulted in their deaths or imprisonment...

"People like him"? So you don't actually know what he did, but you are still happy to say he deserves to be murdered? In reality anyone preventing terrorists murdering people deserves a medal, although we don't actually know what he did or didn't do, do we?

Do you support the continued murder of people in pursuit of your political aims?

...if you don`t like our politics and methods..too fucking bad. Take your troops and government to fuck away out of our counrty once and for all.

I don't support the death penalty. I don't support murdering people. As for "fucking away out of our country" - I am not going to follow down your petty nationalist route and demand that you 'fuck off out of England' or 'go back where you belong' or whatever proto-fascist shite you dribble out all over these forums. However, murder-supporting cunts like you might well 'get what they deserve' and it certainly isn't people running away or cowering from them.

If we all adopted your mentality then instead of giving an amnesty and early release to a whole list of people who have murdered people in NI, we'd line them all up next to a ditch and shoot them, without any evidence or trial - merely because they are "people like that".

I really feel sorry for you if this really is the kind of country you want to live in and if you think this is a good way to fight for justice, equality and freedom - let alone arguments about flags, lines on the map and the rest of the nationalist shit that some people get so excited about.

If you aren't getting enough violence these days maybe you should go and join the jihadists in Iraq and help them murder their fellow citizens? I am sure you could spin a whole load of anti-colonialist bullshit about that as well.

 

[Dowie]

Can't stand this bollocks tbh... arm chair terrorists waffling on about 'touts' & previous injustices etc.. -the main problem in northern Ireland is a minority of biggoted twats on both sides so fixated on their own history that they can't get along with each other simply because they have a very slightly different religion. What’s happened in the past is irrelevant - who cares if you're descended from people who moved there 300 years ago or a few thousand years ago you've still got the right to live there - its still a friggin democracy. Who cares if its called the 'north of Ireland' or 'northern Ireland' - its just a name unless you've got deep set "us vs them" views - the republic don't seem to want it anyway & I don't think many people in Britain are all that bothered about whether it is a part of our country or not.

Perhaps we should just make the whole place independent & let them sort their own mess out?

 

[TeeJay]

--edit--

 

[ZAMB]

Take your troops and government to fuck away out of our counrty once and for all.

Who died and made you God - where do you think you get the authority to speak for all the people of NI??? Especially since you don't even live here!!!

 

[TeeJay]

Who died and made you God - where do you think you get the authority to speak for all the people of NI??? Especially since you don't even live here!!!

He gets his authority out of the barrel of a gun.

 

[cemertyone]

"People like him"? So you don't actually know what he did, but you are still happy to say he deserves to be murdered? In reality anyone preventing terrorists murdering people deserves a medal, although we don't actually know what he did or didn't do, do we?

Oh but au contraire Teejey...we know exactly what he was doing..he was spying and informing on his fellow republicans for 20 plus years for the Special Branch and MI5.
There is no doubt what-so-ever ( and if you actually knew how those organisations operated over the last 20 years in N-Ireland and there`s a wealth of evidence to support my views you would not even contest this) that that information was used to compile/remove or have assassinated republicans whom S.B./MI5 viewed as threats.

Do you support the continued murder of people in pursuit of your political aims?
The short answer to that is yes. the long answer might just be a little bit over your head..

If you aren't getting enough violence these days maybe you should go and join the jihadists in Iraq and help them murder their fellow citizens? I am sure you could spin a whole load of anti-colonialist bullshit about that as well.

That probably high lights your imaturity better than i could ever...your sounding like Mears now..."Jihadists= bad guys..our boys in iraq=the good guys...

 

[cemertyone]

Who died and made you God - where do you think you get the authority to speak for all the people of NI??? Especially since you don't even live here!!!

Oh the old " you don`t live there routine". By that logic i can`t comment on Iraq because i don`t live there either..Or maybe Iran..oh i can`t because I don`t live there. How droll.
And your saying what son??? not much actually.

 

[cemertyone]

Perhaps we should just make the whole place independent & let them sort their own mess out?

Now there`s a novel idea... about 300 years late mind.

 

[likesfish]

I think giving the idea the brisitsh state prolonged the "war" out of some devious plan is giving way too much credit to the british state.
plan after 1917 ignore it
plan b 68 send the troops in
plan c carry on with plan b till the gfa

mind you the pria plans were not much better plan a drive the brits into the sea
plan b contuie killing till the brits leave and we get a marxist republic (though bonus point for getting cash off the yanks while being marxists
) though the wall coming down must have been a shock to the collection of marxist revoluntairys

prods paramilitarys get drunk kill a taig mostly succesful ok they killed the occasional prod but hey its a price worth paying

 

[zoltan]

***TOO MUCH INFORMATION*****

 

[ZAMB]

deleted

 

[cemertyone]

Were you even actually around for the civil rights marches? I was. And at the start there were very few 'republicans' involved.

That`s total and utter shite... if you think republicans where not involved with groups like " People`s Democracy " your attempting to re-write history. If you think republicans were not involved in marches/ demonstrations and sit- ins etc to highlight the inequality of what was going on then under the unionist regime...your well off the fucking mark.
Oh and of course the Provisionals were not involved with the C.D.C. ( Citizens Defense Committe) or indeed a Host of other organisations that came to the fore....
For some one who alleges that he was there are the start of the civil rights programme you seem particulary ill-informed of events of that era. But then again perhaps you didn`t have to live under a curfew like the residents of the Falls did. Perhaps you were not burnt out of your home around bombay street and Clonard monastery, perhaps you didn`t fell the full effects of a protestant pogram that seen the largest "forced removal" of people in Europe since the ending of the second World War.

 

[ZAMB]

deleted

 

[likesfish]

ah but were you a protestant or a catholic buddihist

 

[cathal marcs]

You're talking about 'our country', 'our politics and methods' etc. - who are you kidding? As Dowie says, you're nothing but an armchair terrorist. What are your credentials for being able to speak for the NI people apart from 'the barrel of a gun' - and since you are in England, even the gun is held by some other sucker???

Were you even actually around for the civil rights marches? I was. And at the start there were very few 'republicans' involved.

Loose talk old boy loose talk

 

[ZAMB]

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[ZAMB]

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[ZAMB]

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[cathal marcs]

What makes you think you are in danger ?Just I dont think folk will be bragging about any credentials to some no mark on an internet forum to be quite frank.