Sicko

[spacemonkey]

Yeah, man.

I got fed up with my car insurance. I thought. surely, this is just a bet> I say to Norwich Union 'I bet you I crash my car' and they say ' I bet you don't'.

I say 'OK you're on, what's the odds?' and they work it out and say '£400 a year fully comp, we'll stand you for fucking millions mate' which if you think about it is quite good.

Trouble is, as soon as you try to claim the bastards start wriggling, FFS I had a guy put his car in gear and drive into me whilst I was stationary, on the main carriageway, he came from a side road. New driver. Wrecked my car, the insurers tried to make it equal blame, queried the damage, argued about bills, wouldn't give me a courtesy car on a technicality etc etc.

If you go to William Hill or Corbetts, and say 'I bet man U will win on Saturday' and they do, the bookie will pay out and smile.

I'd like to get my insurance from a proper bookie.

Less hassle.

Would it be legal?

I can apply exactly the same thing to travel insurance.

"I bet you at least once when I'm away for a year, I get all my stuff stolen or get severely injured and airlifted back to the UK"

"I bet you don't"

Then I have £800 pounds worth of stuff stolen and they fuck me on every technicality and I'm left feeling grateful for the £150 they give me 11 months later.

 

[nightowl]

much as i'm happy to see some of moore's targets take a kicking, he's a bit of a dishonest filmmaker which he doesn't really need to be. the facts speak for themselves. he doesn't need to twist things.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I just watched this last night. What the fuck is wrong with the Americans?

Actually, I know what's wrong. Some enterprising businesspeople [read: Edgar Kaiser] figured out a better way to make money out of people getting sick. And lucky for him, Richard Nixon was in the white house at the time.

It's funny: you watch all the propaganda fed to the US public about socialized medicine, about how instead of talking to a doctor, you'd be talking to a govt bureaucrat if you got sick.

So what do they get instead? If you get sick in the US, you get to talk to an insurance agent instead of a doctor. And it's an insurance agent whose job it is to save the company money, and that is done by denying claims.

When Moore was talking to his canadian relatives, he was marvelling over the fact that they took out special health insurance if they were going to travel to the US, even for one day. It made me realize how much of a commonplace that is for canadians. If we are going to travel to the US, we buy special insurance, so that if something happens to us there, we won't be raped financially by their carnivorous system, on top of being ill.

When we were younger and travelling to the US, we didn't take out insurance. But we talked about the issue, and we'd agree in advance that if anything happened to any one of us that was short of being immediately life threatening, the rest of us would take turns rotation-driving for the canadian border in order to get the sick one back to Canada for medical treatment.

One trip to the US, years ago, we stayed with the grandparents of a friend, in two different california towns. One set, in northern california, were prosperous, lived in a nice house, etc. The other was just the grandmother, living in a small house in southern california. They had been prosperous, with a big house, while the husband was still alive, but he got sick and took a while to die, meaning treatment, care etc. The cost of that took all their finances, and left her a widow in poverty.

Americans can laugh at the canadian 'socialized medicine', but the fact is that tour companies here have special junkets for americans, often seniors, who plan trips here, see a doctor, get a prescription for medication they've been prescribed in the US, then fill their prescriptions here for a fraction of the cost it would be back home.

I'm a believer in capitalism, the free market etc, but there are a few things that I believe we should band together for, for the common good, via the govt. The defence of the country is one of those things, but so is the defence of the common health of the citizens. If they're going to use my tax money to kill people in Afghanistan, the least they can do is use some different tax money to help sick people here at home.

 

[stretchy18]

I'm dithering on this one, I'm exposed to second and third world hospitals in my work environment and compared to UK NHS hospitals they are dire and dangerous but..........I expect so much from the NHS and they have failed to deliver in my personal experience. The standards being lower than I would expect, even though they acknowledge issues like hygiene and have written protocols they do not achieve these

Is the bar too high for the NHS, or could it be managed much better and enhance even more, its services

My personal jury is out, but I have more to go and will report back

 

[catrina]

This film was absurd. I'm all for altering the state of healthcare in America. I live in the UK in protest of the state of healthcare in America. However, Michael Moore just gave opponents to reform more ammunition with this film, rather than doing anything to support the cause. Large portions of the movie are totally inaccurate.

His whole subplot on cochlear implants and how they wouldn't give the guy two? Bilateral cochlear implants are an entirely experimental procedure at the moment (and most certainly would have been when this was filmed), and for adults the jury is still out whether the risks of getting two is better than one. It's not available on the NHS yet, although they're due to vote this year on it. Pick a cause where the insurance companies are really screwing up. Not one where they're following recommended protocol. After seeing that segment I found it impossible to watch the rest of the film. Totally irresponsible filmmaking. He really disgusts me.

 

[Sadken]

He was really struggling to find anyone British with even the slightest criticism of the NHS, which was mental. It was almost as if he edited out those bits...

 

[lighterthief]

I watched this at the weekend. Really, Michael Moore is a shoddy, sensationalist film maker. I wouldn't call them 'documentaries' any more, that's for sure.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I watched this at the weekend. Really, Michael Moore is a shoddy, sensationalist film maker. I wouldn't call them 'documentaries' any more, that's for sure.

I wouldn't either. He does more harm than good.

That said, there is both really good and really bad about health care here.

Several years ago I had a cancer scare. I was in for a mamogram and follow-up tests the very next day. The care I received was fine, no complaints. I spent the next 9 months paying off the bills, none of which my insurance paid because they said they didn't cover mamograms for women under 40. If I'd have been truely sick, I'd have had to sell my house and everything I own to pay the bills as my brother had to do when they found he had lung cancer. My mother and I ended up paying his rent and drug bills the last few months of his life because he'd been bankrupted.

Since then our health insurance had been cut. We went from an 80/20 plan with $100 deductible to a health managed plan with $1000 deductible. I'd surely think twice before going to doctor now, even for basic preventative care.

 

[London_Calling]

Agreed, if you're content for the corporate life and - by European levels - very poor holidays, very poor maternatity leave, very poor sick pay, very poor everything except an entertainingly macho working hours culture, the US stystem is probably fine.

But most do need to sell their soul to corporate world to get the benefits, and once in that world, maybe with ideas of a family . . . there is absolutely no way out.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I wouldn't either. He does more harm than good.

I really doubt that.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I really doubt that.

It gives the Republicans the ability to point to it as proof that the "wiberals" are using propaganda to push "socialised medicine" on "hard working americans." We're much better off if everyone just sticks to the facts. Once you examine the health stats you realize that americans are a lot less heathy than others and something needs to change and quick.

 

[London_Calling]

I really doubt that.

I haven't seen this one, but in general I don't doubt it; he preachers to the converted and rabble-rouses. Has zero effect on those who he should be reaching out to.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It gives the Republicans the ability to point to it as proof that the "wiberals" are using propaganda to push "socialised medicine" on "hard working americans."

I really doubt that they need Moore to enable them to do that.

What Moore does is bring about a debate and influence that debate in a certain direction. People are quite capable of seeing that not everything is quite as Moore puts it: that's not really the point. The point is the discussion.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I haven't seen this one, but in general I don't doubt it; he preachers to the converted and rabble-rouses. Has zero effect on those who he should be reaching out to.

I think this is tosh. Millions of people see his films: I very much doubt that they're all "the converted".

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

What Moore does is bring about a debate and influence that debate in a certain direction. People are quite capable of seeing that not everything is quite as Moore puts it: that's not really the point. The point is the discussion.

Unfortunately, in the age of soundbites, Moore's is the voice that is the loudest heard. The discussion is over before the 64 yr. old guy with $250,000 in past due medical bills and who won't ever be able to retire gets to be heard.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The very existence of this discussion tends to disprove that claim.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The very existence of this discussion tends to disprove that claim.

I suspect I'm the only american on the thread. The people discussing it arn't the ones who need to be.

 

[_angel_]

It gives the Republicans the ability to point to it as proof that the "wiberals" are using propaganda to push "socialised medicine" on "hard working americans." We're much better off if everyone just sticks to the facts. Once you examine the health stats you realize that americans are a lot less heathy than others and something needs to change and quick.

I agree anything he is trying to say probably falls prey to his habit of SHOUTING!!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But I do suspect that Americans are capable of discussing health insurance, even on bulletin boards, without either agreeing or disagreeing with every point made by any given protagonist in any given debate. Moore's film will mean that discussion happens more often. Hence, good.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

But I do suspect that Americans are capable of discussing health insurance, even on bulletin boards, without either agreeing or disagreeing with every point made by any given protagonist in any given debate. Moore's film will mean that discussion happens more often. Hence, good.

I don't know of any american boards similar to this one. I can only find New Republic and Rush Limbaugh. Can you point me to one?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

<points westwards>

 

[DexterTCN]

You can look at the NHS for its flaws or you can look at it in comparison to the US system of (universal) healthcare.

I'm sure the US insurance system is great when it kicks in with some actual healthcare, I'm not so sure a country of that size and culture of the US would be any good at the same kind of thing.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You can look at the NHS for its flaws or you can look at it in comparison to the US system of (universal) healthcare.

I'm sure the US insurance system is great when it kicks in with some actual healthcare, I'm not so sure a country of that size and culture of the US would be any good at the same kind of thing.

Thats the other thing that pops up in debates. Most of the government run health care systems we see arn't the best. Look at the care that military people get who are wounded and at clinics on Indian reservations. The one on the Pine Ridge reservation was closed this winter because there wasn't money to pay the heat bill. No one wants to copy that.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

<points westwards>

Very funny, how about a link?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I'm afraid the pointing is the best I can do. It's free-access pointing, though.

 

[catrina]

The US system used to be good when the insurance kicked in, but that era has ended. Corporations can no longer afford to insure their employees, and the agony trickles downward.

This problem is way more than a universal healthcare solution. The entire medical profession needs an overhaul. It costs $300,000 to go to medical school in the US. That's on top of an undergraduate degree, which can be anything between $40,000 - $120,000. After you shell out for that, you have at a minimum 4, and easily up to 8, years of specialty training, during which time you're making $40,000 per year, and working 120 hour weeks. They you start working, but you have to worry about being sued. So, on top of the $400,000 in loans you've got at the start of your career, you have to shell out for medical malpractice insurance.

Why would anyone be a doctor? And if you are going to be a doctor and take on that kind of financial responsibility, are you going to be the sort that goes into general practice, or are you going to go be a neurosurgeon at a major research hospital? (Regardless of original intention, who can sleep with that much debt on their back?)

The NHS takes care of all that. They pay for medical education, they resolve malpractice issues, it's all taken care of.

I worked it out the other day. Yes, in the US, the taxes are slightly lower. But, unless you are on some miracle insurance plan, which are few and far between, you have to shell out of pocket for health insurance. On top of this, you have a deductible, an amount you must pay before insurance kicks in, which can be up to $10,000 a year. So, you're paying about $35,000 a year for insurance for a family.

But then you talk to people in the US about "socialized medicine" and they freak out and demand they have choice in their doctor, choice, choice, choice. Where's the choice in being enslaved at a large multinational so that you can have access to basic medical treatment?

 

[DexterTCN]

Economy of scale, I suppose. Can't see any US politician going up against either the Insurance or Medical industries though.

 

[London_Calling]

I live in the states and I have decent insurance. Hence, the healthcare system works fine for me. Actually, since I've been here I've managed to get several long term niggling problems sorted out that my NHS doctors back home were not able to diagnose. I get to see specialists without waiting and if I need an operation I wouldn't face a long waiting list like I would back home.

Another way of looking at the same issue is to understand doctors in the US need to find something wrong with you else you don't provide them with profit - you are their source of income. So of course they're going to recommend 'precautionary' this and that and that you undergo minor operations, and with double the x-rays and days in hospital . . . just to be, you know, sure; everything produces profit. It's the leading reason why the system is so expensive.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I wouldn't either. He does more harm than good.

That said, there is both really good and really bad about health care here.

Several years ago I had a cancer scare. I was in for a mamogram and follow-up tests the very next day. The care I received was fine, no complaints. I spent the next 9 months paying off the bills, none of which my insurance paid because they said they didn't cover mamograms for women under 40. If I'd have been truely sick, I'd have had to sell my house and everything I own to pay the bills as my brother had to do when they found he had lung cancer. My mother and I ended up paying his rent and drug bills the last few months of his life because he'd been bankrupted.

Since then our health insurance had been cut. We went from an 80/20 plan with $100 deductible to a health managed plan with $1000 deductible. I'd surely think twice before going to doctor now, even for basic preventative care.

A female friend here in Vancouver went in for a breast exam. The doctor found some lumps. The next day, she was in for a mammogram, and within a couple of days, she had surgery. It didn't cost her a cent.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

A friend and his wife, both Canadians, went to live in LA. After a couple of months, she was crossing Sunset Boulevard, and was knocked down by a car. She sustained serious injuries, was put on life support, which was discontinued after a couple of weeks.

My friend, having just lost his wife, received a bill from the hospital for $600,000.

My mother in law likes to travel, but being senior, her health isn't the best. Twice now, once in Spain, and once in UK, she has had to receive emergency treatment in hospitals. In both cases, there was no charge for the services.