Actually in my home town, the North of the city predominatly working class and full of big estates was festooned with Union jacks during the Iraq war, the South part , home of muesli eating folk, students, liberal/left and me was covered in STW posters and peace flags.I do think it may be different in parts of Europe, but not here,
Shouldn't the Left benefit from poor state of the economy?
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Actually in my home town, the North of the city predominatly working class and full of big estates was festooned with Union jacks during the Iraq war, the South part , home of muesli eating folk, students, liberal/left and me was covered in STW posters and peace flags.I do think it may be different in parts of Europe, but not here,
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
The left haven't been able to offer hope for a good few years
Hard to argue with the state of the so called "workers paradises"
I know a true socalist state wouldnt be like that ,but, thatchers ideas were
supposed to build something better than what we got .NO reason for left wing dreams to work any bette than right wing ones.
I find it quite difficult to see the far left as purveyors of hope to be honest.
Hysterical pessimists more like.
I do think though in economic downturns the space is there to talk about building a society based more on co-operation than competition and increasing democracy and sharing wealth fairly.
But very few people really believe that to the Left of New Labour are people with coherent ideas of change that could really benefit their lives.
As has been commennted on Iraq etc is all very interesting for a small section of the middle classes but means jack shit to most people.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well I think we live in an age of cynicism and lack of faith of all kinds. This has affected the left particularly badly, but they are by no means alone. Faith in institutions and systems themselves is also at a low ebb for example.
Assuming that the economic downturn is bad and long, then it seems inevitable that the so called centre ground market-tastic stuff will come unstuck, and that political extremes of all kinds may find wider support.
It is completely unclear to me exactly what left-leaning groups may have the credibility and appeal to a broader range of people in these circumstances, but a lot of people may still call for lefty policies to deal with the bad situations anyway. Who knows who may be lurking unseen in the wings, ready to become a champion of some new politics (or a return to old politics).
I would expect that out of necessity, the mainstream parties will have to make more radical policy decisions in future, and we may see both left and right wing policies being implemented in a way that hasnt happened too much for several decades.
Still Ive really no idea what will happen, so much depends on quite how bad things get, and how people adjust to reality biting them on the butt. It may appear that society has evolved in ways that are not helpful for sanely dealing with bad situations, but who knows, we may yet surprise ourselves when the going gets tough.
Assuming that the economic downturn is bad and long, then it seems inevitable that the so called centre ground market-tastic stuff will come unstuck, and that political extremes of all kinds may find wider support.
It is completely unclear to me exactly what left-leaning groups may have the credibility and appeal to a broader range of people in these circumstances, but a lot of people may still call for lefty policies to deal with the bad situations anyway. Who knows who may be lurking unseen in the wings, ready to become a champion of some new politics (or a return to old politics).
I would expect that out of necessity, the mainstream parties will have to make more radical policy decisions in future, and we may see both left and right wing policies being implemented in a way that hasnt happened too much for several decades.
Still Ive really no idea what will happen, so much depends on quite how bad things get, and how people adjust to reality biting them on the butt. It may appear that society has evolved in ways that are not helpful for sanely dealing with bad situations, but who knows, we may yet surprise ourselves when the going gets tough.
This has me totally baffled...after 20 odd years of right wing governments it's just well...baffling. The only reason i can think is left wing parties haven't got the funding, lets face it, not many millionaires are gonna be very interested,,,
Bollocks. All sensible policies lie to the left of New Labour, in fact to be to the RIGHT of New Labour you'd have to be the BNP!
newbie
undisambiguated
One of the most noticeable trends across the world over the last decade or two has been the resurgence of organised religion. It's not been too apparent here, except in minority communities, partly because of the widespread obsessing about mammon, but as times get hard that may be where people turn. 
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The growth of organised religion or the influence of organised religion on public policy. If the first, have you anything to back this up?
Well, people have lurched left during previous economic crises (1930s for example, worldwide).
Karamazov#1
Good, Bad and Ugly
Yes but back then there were well organised left wing parties and mass trade unions to tie people together in struggle. There was also a clear discourse in most of Europe regarding the evils of capitalism. Now in Britain at least all these things are no longer present. The "organised left" consists of middle class people obsessed with Israel and has no clear analysis as to how our current state can be overcome. The sooner labour loses the next election and disintegrates, the better maybe then there will emerge a new left wing party that can actually speak to working class people.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Not really. I can see the second is definitely happening (even in this country). I'm not convinced that it a result of the first or that the first is happening.
Arguably some of the BNP's policies are to the left of New Labour.
newbie
undisambiguated
How does one tell? Self identification of religious identity is probably lower now amongst those who are not motivated by religion- those who are serious were always a minority.
A significant minority though, with the ability to wield power and influence. If societies are not to be gripped by great political ideals (as seems possible), perhaps there's a vacuum into which the mystics can move with their proclamations that there's some sort of universal, or divine, truth which we should all accept.
Lefties have been in charge of the economy since the Conservative party were oustedback in the 90's.
The economy appears to be buggered.
It's being going downhill for years (therefore nulaboor can't blame "Thatcher's legacy").
It's the Left's fault.
Any more Left will only bugger it more.
Swing t'other way.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well if thing got really shitty for a long time then its possible to imagine more people turning to religion. But this is no cert. The place that the church had in in many more peoples lives in Britain in the past, was as much about peoples family & local life, their traditions, and their culture, as economic circumstance and spiritual belief.
We can wonder at what may fill the void that may emerge if the new church of the shopping centre falls into sudden decline. I guess it will resemble the past in some ways but will be different, and there are too many factors to begin to predict. If there are lots of unemployed people, or if there is a complete collapse in consumer culture, a decline in longer-distance travel, stuff like that, then the change could be great indeed.
Much depends on who people decide to blame, and that is where the political direction that we will go in will become apparent, it could be rather scary. Who will the scapegoats be? Who will proclaim to have the answers, and be believed? How will the state react? If a nasty far right force starts to act on its beliefs, how many will stand against such a force? Are corporatism, market forces and the like going to be blamed, or liberals and political correctness? Will we throw the baby out with the bathwater?
We can wonder at what may fill the void that may emerge if the new church of the shopping centre falls into sudden decline. I guess it will resemble the past in some ways but will be different, and there are too many factors to begin to predict. If there are lots of unemployed people, or if there is a complete collapse in consumer culture, a decline in longer-distance travel, stuff like that, then the change could be great indeed.
Much depends on who people decide to blame, and that is where the political direction that we will go in will become apparent, it could be rather scary. Who will the scapegoats be? Who will proclaim to have the answers, and be believed? How will the state react? If a nasty far right force starts to act on its beliefs, how many will stand against such a force? Are corporatism, market forces and the like going to be blamed, or liberals and political correctness? Will we throw the baby out with the bathwater?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
*If* it starts to act on its beliefs?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well I talked about the BNP a few times in past months as I live somewhere that has had some BNP election success, and a frighteningly large proportion of the people I meet through work seem ready blame people of different races, nations, etc. At the moment it mostly seems like a fairly low-level resentment, I am worried about how that might progress if we end up in an era with really high unemployment, shortages, etc.
So yeah, I know there are people who lean to the right to different extents who are already active, but these have been 'prosperous times' for many till recently, so I worry much about what might be stirred up by much bleaker times. Much the same as that leaked government memo said really.
Oh I dunno, I find it hard to judge how much things might change, given that the effects of the economic woes have not yet made most people's lives feel as bad as the 1980s or 1970s, and yet the media/government is already moving on to the idea it will be as bad as after world war 2. If it finally ends up being as bad as the 1930's depression, then I will take my fears much more seriously, but in the short term its probably gonna be a story of people turning to the Tories for a solution, and if they fail and it drags on then we'll see more extremes.
So yeah, I know there are people who lean to the right to different extents who are already active, but these have been 'prosperous times' for many till recently, so I worry much about what might be stirred up by much bleaker times. Much the same as that leaked government memo said really.
Oh I dunno, I find it hard to judge how much things might change, given that the effects of the economic woes have not yet made most people's lives feel as bad as the 1980s or 1970s, and yet the media/government is already moving on to the idea it will be as bad as after world war 2. If it finally ends up being as bad as the 1930's depression, then I will take my fears much more seriously, but in the short term its probably gonna be a story of people turning to the Tories for a solution, and if they fail and it drags on then we'll see more extremes.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Am also interested to see if we get any leftwing policies from labour during their remaining time in office. Tomorrow there is supposed to be an announcement about housing, lets see if the policy is more of what we are used to in recent decades, or something a little stronger.
JHE
.
If the left were seen as offering a credible alternative, hard times would lead to increased support. In fact, the left is not seen as offering anything of the sort.
You have a good and important point or two in there, but you have also massively exaggerated. The working class as a whole has not turned to the far-right - or indeed to any other political position.
Actually that not true, the new Pentecostal Churches as a consequence of migration, etc are growing at a incredible rate and some of them have some very unpleasant views and ideas indeed. Aihsb, i think we will see some of the 'culture wars' that have occurred in the US as race and religion replace class for many. Also, in many towns , young migrants who can't work hang around street corners in large groups (in many ways similar to our grandfathers in the Thirties in the Depression, this can only increase as the economic conditions worsen leading to possible tensions with the police and the wider community..
In terms of the left, imo, it is finished as presently constituted: one look at the Convention of the Left programme says it all, its sadly an incoherent mismash of meetings and ideas, framed by a weekend of No Borders activity, which many left thinking people do not agree with.
Overall, I think the neo-liberal globalisation project of NL is going to unravel with profound consequences for the UK, I don't think we can 'muddle throiugh' this time. I think we are in for some tumultous times, but not really ones to benefit the left such as it is.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Would I be right in thinking that no revolution in history has led to the kind of society you would like to live in? And therefore, all revolutions through history have also led to despair?
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Would that be economically or politically? I was of the impression that fascism adhered to a fairly centralised (ish) economy, which would put it to the left of Labour economically (hence their appeal predominantly to the working classes, way more so than the far left's appeal to the working class), but obviously their political beliefs are on the far right of the spectrum
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
No, lots of revolutions have lead to the types of society I'd want to live in. The majority have been externally crushed (owing little to their internal economic mechanisms) but there remain some examples of communal control. Accross the world there are hundreds of examples of city regions which operate, in effect, autonomously of government, particularly in Latin America. Slums such as La Paz in Bolivia are entirely controlled on a day-to-day basis by neighbourhood committees and People's Courts. Such examples of collective political cotrol are, in my view, a vindication of my beliefs that such political structures can successfully operate. The kind of society which the El Alto slum would develop into were it left to its own devices over a period of 50-100 years would be communal. Whether or not that happens is a different story.
Das Uberdog
remembers the alamo
0/10 for comprehension
