Shouldn't The Fash Be Doing an Awful Lot Better?

[XerxesVargas]

This is why I get so frustrated that they get so little time on the TV. We should be dragging these idiots in front of the bright lights of TV/Radio/where ever and get a debate going with them. They are idiots and morons and it won't take Paxman to show that up. They are incompetent, as their previous serving councillors have shown, and it should be highlighted.

 

[kyser_soze]

I think the opposition to the BNP needs to get it's house in order, drop the rhetoric and present BNP voters with the facts detailing the issues that concern them locally, and show that there aren't inbuilt biases within the welfare and housing systems for example, and if there are explaining why they exist.

Every single white w/c vote the BNP take is a failure of the left to engage what should be it's natural constituency. And running around calling everyone 'fascists' isn't going to get anyone anywhere quickly...

 

[treelover]

I'm afraid that just won't happen with the 19th c left and the liberals, no, according to them that very sensible option is just 'pandering to racism'. No, instead, you have to shout racist at everyone, create broad fronts with political parties who have largely created the conditions for the far right to grow and even vote for them, 'anyone but the BNP' is their slogan.Mix that in with a couple of dubious anti-racist front groups and there you have their soulution.

btw, its a real shame the IWCA has not took off, they were possible the only
'leftist' group who could have really challlenged the BNP.

KS Said:

I think the opposition to the BNP needs to get it's house in order, drop the rhetoric and present BNP voters with the facts detailing the issues that concern them locally, and show that there aren't inbuilt biases within the welfare and housing systems for example, and if there are explaining why they exist.

Every single white w/c vote the BNP take is a failure of the left to engage what should be it's natural constituency. And running around calling everyone 'fascists' isn't going to get anyone anywhere quickly...
Reply With Quote

 

[tbaldwin]

I think the opposition to the BNP needs to get it's house in order, drop the rhetoric and present BNP voters with the facts detailing the issues that concern them locally, and show that there aren't inbuilt biases within the welfare and housing systems for example, and if there are explaining why they exist.

Every single white w/c vote the BNP take is a failure of the left to engage what should be it's natural constituency. And running around calling everyone 'fascists' isn't going to get anyone anywhere quickly...

There are inbuilt biases though like the homeless persons act. The Left cant fight the far rights lies and exaggerations by being just as dishonest themselves.
I agree going round calling loads of people fascists is counterproductive but to coin a phrase lets call a spade a spade. The people at the top of the BNP have long records as holocaust deniers and nazi sympathisers. You need to expose that too their potential voters. And of course violent and sex offences too. The BNP need to be ridiculed and humiliated. Sadly all too often the Left have been dire and dishonest in trying to counter their propaganda.

 

[1875]

The problem is that the left have been "exposing" the BNP as fascists and nazis for decades, and with what result? They're getting more votes than ever.

Take off the 1930s sepia tinted glasses. We are not having to take wheelbarrows full of cash to tesco because of hyperinflation, we have not just been humiliated in the trenches.

Look instead at where the far right have carved a small but politically lucrative niche for themselves in economies similar to our own - the FPO in Austria, the AN in Italy. They are not fascist by any stretch of the imagination, and they will never be in a position to organise death camps, but they are helping divide the working class and present the only alternative to neo-liberalism as dead end racist grumbling. That is the threat the BNP pose - it isn't as nightmarish as the left would have it but it is a serious one nonetheless.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

This is why I get so frustrated that they get so little time on the TV. We should be dragging these idiots in front of the bright lights of TV/Radio/where ever and get a debate going with them. They are idiots and morons and it won't take Paxman to show that up. They are incompetent, as their previous serving councillors have shown, and it should be highlighted.

Agreed. It is lazy journalism to just interview semi intelligent fash like Griffin and Rustem The people who the likes of Paxman needs to take apart are the likes of Barnbrook and the lesser fash cllrs like what we've been lumbered with in B and D. I don't think that they will be able to carry an argument and will be shown up for the low lifes they are no matter how well fash central briefs them. It could work out quite well. If they turn up for interview and fuck up then they are made to look stupid if the bnp refuse to let the cllr be interviewed they look shifty. A classic win - win situation.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think the opposition to the BNP needs to get it's house in order, drop the rhetoric and present BNP voters with the facts detailing the issues that concern them locally, and show that there aren't inbuilt biases within the welfare and housing systems for example, and if there are explaining why they exist.

Do this, make the asylum system more transparent and build more public housing. This will cut the feet from beneath the fash.

Every single white w/c vote the BNP take is a failure of the left to engage what should be it's natural constituency. And running around calling everyone 'fascists' isn't going to get anyone anywhere quickly...

This has been the classic SWP stylee approach and tbh it has driven people in my area towards the scum.

What happened in my borough is not a BNP win but a loss for the left.

 

[kyser_soze]

Do this, make the asylum system more transparent and build more public housing. This will cut the feet from beneath the fash.




This has been the classic SWP stylee approach and tbh it has driven people in my area towards the scum.

What happened in my borough is not a BNP win but a loss for the left.

Couldn't agree more mate.

 

[audiotech]

Do this, make the asylum system more transparent and build more public housing. This will cut the feet from beneath the fash.

So it's a call to the present Labour Government (who are incapable of doing either of the things you mention). Is that it?

This has been the classic SWP stylee approach and tbh it has driven people in my area towards the scum.

It is this Labour governments neo-liberal agenda that is driving some voters towards the BNP.

The “Don’t Vote Nazi” strategy is not enough to counter the BNP. What is urgently needed is a radical political alternative that can channel people’s bitterness and anger with Labour in a positive direction.

 

[TremulousTetra]

can anybody, give me an example anywhere, of the SWP calling anybody but the BNP National front ect fascist? in fact I will state right here, if you can find me where SW has argued anybody who votes for the fascists, is a fascist, or you can find that anywhere in the ANL UAF statements, I will leave the SW.

In fact I seem to remember people suggesting SW was fascist. Suggesting respects was fascist. I've seen the left calling the police fascist. Margaret Thatcher fascist. And every time this kind of thing happens, SW argue that is cheap stupid posturing, and 1,000,000 miles from the truth.


Respects ResistanceMP3

 

[TremulousTetra]

I think the opposition to the BNP needs to get it's house in order, drop the rhetoric and present BNP voters with the facts detailing the issues that concern them locally, and show that there aren't inbuilt biases within the welfare and housing systems for example, and if there are explaining why they exist.

couldn't agree with you more. This is one of the aims of the various antifascist organisations.

Every single white w/c vote the BNP take is a failure of the left to engage what should be it's natural constituency. And running around calling everyone 'fascists' isn't going to get anyone anywhere quickly...

please give me an example of where this happens, and I will join you in denunciation of these people.

Respect ResistanceMP3

 

[TremulousTetra]

The problem is that the left have been "exposing" the BNP as fascists and nazis for decades, and with what result? They're getting more votes than ever.

well in a recent opinion poll, the majority of people were shown as supporting the policies of the BNP, but soon as they found out who it was a dropped that support.

Take off the 1930s sepia tinted glasses. We are not having to take wheelbarrows full of cash to tesco because of hyperinflation, we have not just been humiliated in the trenches.

Look instead at where the far right have carved a small but politically lucrative niche for themselves in economies similar to our own - the FPO in Austria, the AN in Italy. They are not fascist by any stretch of the imagination, and they will never be in a position to organise death camps, but they are helping divide the working class and present the only alternative to neo-liberalism as dead end racist grumbling. That is the threat the BNP pose - it isn't as nightmarish as the left would have it but it is a serious one nonetheless.

you're absolutely right, they do not pose a 1930s style threat now. The argument is, given the right circumstances, economic crash etc, the fascist can grow extremely fast. That the logic of their politics in this situation, the logic of scapegoating, will eventually lead them down a path like the 1930s. This danger is in the future as you say, but it is a danger in the nature of their politics, fascism.

Respect's Resistance MP3

 

[kyser_soze]

couldn't agree with you more. This is one of the aims of the various antifascist organisations.

please give me an example of where this happens, and I will join you in denunciation of these people.

Respect ResistanceMP3

Well, Treelover posted it earlier - this quote from the UAF:

Weyman Bennett Joint Secretary of Unite Against Fascism said:
"The election of an openly Nazi organisation as the official opposition in
Barking & Dagenham is warning to all of us. Just as Hitler singled out
minorities to blame for the economic crisis of the 1930s the BNP want to
scapegoat black and Asian people for London's housing crisis and economic
failure in Barking and Dagenham .
There is a great danger that the BNP's election gains give a veneer of
respectability to racist ideas, and could pull mainstream politics into the
gutter.
We now need to bring about an enormous mobilisation of those that are
against fascism into a unified opposition. We need black and white to unite
and fight against those who would usher the fascist politics of Hitler and
Mussolini into the twenty-first century.
Our slogan is 'Never Again'."

To begin with there is no attempt at making a distinction between those who are merely 'welfare/job miffed' (i.e. are voting BNP because they 'see' immigrants as being social welfare claimants who get preferential treatment or are prepared to do shite jobs they won't/accept lower pay) and actual, genuine racists who think that anyone not 'British' should fuck off.

 

[TremulousTetra]

can anybody, give me an example anywhere, of the SWP calling anybody but the BNP National front ect fascist? in fact I will state right here, if you can find me where SW has argued anybody who votes for the fascists, is a fascist, or you can find that anywhere in the ANL UAF statements, I will leave the SW.

In fact I seem to remember people suggesting SW was fascist. Suggesting respects was fascist. I've seen the left calling the police fascist. Margaret Thatcher fascist. And every time this kind of thing happens, SW argue that is cheap stupid posturing, and 1,000,000 miles from the truth.


Respects ResistanceMP3

Wow! I offer to resign from SW, if anybody can provide evidence of their bogus accusations, and the thread dies. Why am I not surprised?

Respect ResistanceMP3

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Well, Treelover posted it earlier - this quote from the UAF:



To begin with there is no attempt at making a distinction between those who are merely 'welfare/job miffed' (i.e. are voting BNP because they 'see' immigrants as being social welfare claimants who get preferential treatment or are prepared to do shite jobs they won't/accept lower pay) and actual, genuine racists who think that anyone not 'British' should fuck off.

Agreed there it (the UAF swappie front quote) falls back on lazy trot posturing and doesn't see that there are as you say two main reasons for the bnp vote. This aint the 1930's even though we in Dagenham are unfortunate in having 11 cretins elected who belong back there.

 

[treelover]

Straight out of the Trotsky manual!

you're absolutely right, they do not pose a 1930s style threat now. The argument is, given the right circumstances, economic crash etc, the fascist can grow extremely fast. That the logic of their politics in this situation, the logic of scapegoating, will eventually lead them down a path like the 1930s. This danger is in the future as you say, but it is a danger in the nature of their politics, fascism.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Well, Treelover posted it earlier - this quote from the UAF:



To begin with there is no attempt at making a distinction between those who are merely 'welfare/job miffed' (i.e. are voting BNP because they 'see' immigrants as being social welfare claimants who get preferential treatment or are prepared to do shite jobs they won't/accept lower pay) and actual, genuine racists who think that anyone not 'British' should fuck off.

I'm sorry, can you just point out the bit where it says "Anybody other than the BNP is fascist"?

What is quite ironic, is the one guy in this forum that goes on and on and on about illegal immigrants or asylum seekers, the kind of working-class person you are saying we should reach out to, actually agrees with me.

Agree with RMP3. The Nazi sympathies of BNP members should be exposed.
In earlier days that may have seemed counterproductive advertising them to a few likely recruits.But they have got beyond that stage and potential voters need to see behind the common sense style rhetoric.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Straight out of the Trotsky manual!

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm sorry, can you just point out the bit where it says "Anybody other than the BNP is fascist"?

What is quite ironic, is the one guy in this forum that goes on and on and on about illegal immigrants or asylum seekers, the kind of working-class person you are saying we should reach out to, actually agrees with me.

Dude, you need to sort your tagging out and repost that post cos it makes no sense - who are you talking about? when you say 'is one guy in the forum' etc.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Agreed there it (the UAF swappie front quote) falls back on lazy trot posturing and doesn't see that there are as you say two main reasons for the bnp vote. This aint the 1930's even though we in Dagenham are unfortunate in having 11 cretins elected who belong back there.

your ignoring the objective reality. SW cannot do anything about those grievances, only a combative working-class can do that for themselves. But we are not in that situation and we? when they are doing that, we will do anything we can to support them every step of the way. But when they are looking towards fascists as a solution for their legitimate grievances, why should we not point out that this is a bogus solution?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Dude, you need to sort your tagging out and repost that post cos it makes no sense - who are you talking about? when you say 'is one guy in the forum' etc.

the guy that is quoted underneath that paragraph, T. Baldwin. Does that not show up on your browser, it looks okay on mine.

 

[durruti02]

The problem is that the left have been "exposing" the BNP as fascists and nazis for decades, and with what result? They're getting more votes than ever.

Take off the 1930s sepia tinted glasses. We are not having to take wheelbarrows full of cash to tesco because of hyperinflation, we have not just been humiliated in the trenches.

Look instead at where the far right have carved a small but politically lucrative niche for themselves in economies similar to our own - the FPO in Austria, the AN in Italy. They are not fascist by any stretch of the imagination, and they will never be in a position to organise death camps, but they are helping divide the working class and present the only alternative to neo-liberalism as dead end racist grumbling. That is the threat the BNP pose - it isn't as nightmarish as the left would have it but it is a serious one nonetheless.

agree totally


rmp3 .. roughly how many leaflets has UAF etc put into lancs and essex over the last few years .. with almost no effect whatso ever!!!

i disagree with you and Tommy ..

many many white w/c people ( including many in haggerston who voted HI but would i suspect vote bnp for london mayor .. who stressed they were not racist just totally totally fked off) ) have got to the stage where they do not give a fuck that tyndall et al are nazi freaks ..

in fact more and more will be thinking 'if only nazis stand up for us maybe we are nazis!!!"

now that is frightenning

 

[audiotech]

Tyndall's been dead for some time now.

 

[durruti02]

Tyndall's been dead for some time now.

whatever .. you get the drift ..

 

[audiotech]

whatever .. you get the drift ..

I don't.

in fact more and more will be thinking 'if only nazis stand up for us maybe we are nazis!!!"

Do you actually believe your own nonsense?

Even the fascists themselves have realised, that since the last war and the discovery of the death-camps, that Nazi ideology has been rejected by the vast majority of people. Why do you think they want to hide it?

There is no more dressing up in Nazi uniforms (like Tyndal), or statements such as: "building a well oiled Nazi machine" from the likes of Webster, or referring to Jewish people as "maggots" (Tyndal again) is there?

They may try to hide their fascist roots, but there are those who will keep highlighting it. Although doing that is not enough.

 

[durruti02]

look how many leaflets have been pumped into essex and lancs over the last few years?? .. all going on and on about how the BNP are NAZIS ..

it HAS NOT WORKED .. most people just think .. 'here a a group of ordinary people standing up for us, ordinary people' .. and face it most people in barking and dagenham are from families that lived thru years of the nazi bombing .. the nazi thing does not wash

and as more and more people associate themselves with the bnp .. more and more will start to think that fascism is ok that nazism is ok .. lets face it half the german w/c did in the mid 3ts .. cos half of fascism/nazism MAKES SENSE .. just going on about evil ( which the other half of facism/nazism is ) does not work ...

of course tyndalls dead .. but only last year and we can agree that behiind the scenes they still go on about fascist shite

 

[audiotech]

and as more and more people associate themselves with the bnp .. more and more will start to think that fascism is ok that nazism is ok ..

Historically, your analysis doesn't stand-up.

 

[durruti02]

Historically, your analysis doesn't stand-up.

which analysis and in what way ?

 

[audiotech]

which analysis and in what way ?

Mosley, NF all disappeared into history.

 

[durruti02]

Mosley, NF all disappeared into history.

oh i see .. well i don't disagree with that .. i am not saying what will happen with the bnp long term .. all i am saying relates to the short and medium term .. and clearly the bnp are increasing support significantly

tbh i think the bnp ( and the fasc historically) have been shafted by the state .. it is hard to explain otherwise how inept they are .. but also the british state is the most skillfull in the world

however we are in a period of immense and on going restructuring .. to a neo liberal agenda .. and with the rise of China threatenning to destroy our economy ..

it is clearly possible that the state will need a significant fascist party to help discipline the w/c in this period