Should unemployed people be allowed to work? and still keep their benefits....

[ViolentPanda]

Why?

Because it'd encourage people to take casual work if they didn't have to worry about ending and then re-starting their claim every couple of days.

 

[Bakunin]

A big part of the blame for the "can't afford to work" problem lies with the DWP themselves, and the stupid system of halting rather than suspending claims if someone gets some casual work.
Who is going to bother signing off and then signing on again for a day or two's work when their claim could take a week or more to process each time?

ANd, if you're really lucky, you have a massive backlog in Housing Benefit claims in a lot of places. When I first claimed housing benefit Plymouth had not less than a twelve week backlog of claims, which made actually leaving home and finding a place to live, with a landlord that would accept DSS and was willing to wait that long was difficult to put it mildly.

A lot of people aren't so lucky and either end up severely in arrears or tossed out on the street in that time. I've come close myself and it's no laughing matter either, sat alone in a cold and draughty flat, just praying that the payment will finally come through so might have a roof over my head come the winter.

 

[Roadkill]

A big part of the blame for the "can't afford to work" problem lies with the DWP themselves, and the stupid system of halting rather than suspending claims if someone gets some casual work.
Who is going to bother signing off and then signing on again for a day or two's work when their claim could take a week or more to process each time?

This.

The benefits system as a whole is too bureaucratic and too inflexible.

 

[_angel_]

Except it's not stupid, is it? It's doing exactly what it's designed to: redistribute the absolute minimum of wealth possible without causing people to actually starve in the streets. Do you expect generosity of capitalists?

The stupid part comes in deterring people from taking short term casual work because they know at the end of it they'll be left destitute while the system screws them about.

 

[nightbreed]

I wouldn't bother. He's a profoundly ignorant person who thinks it's superior morally to live in a poor country where he can hire cheap child labour ... is superior to people being forced to use a system that they've actually paid into.

In other words a complete and utter wanker.

 

[Bakunin]

I wouldn't bother. He's a profoundly ignorant person who thinks it's superior morally to live in a poor country where he can hire cheap child labour ... is superior to people being forced to use a system that they've actually paid into.

True.

He just pissed me off so much I just had to get that lot off my chest. In derf's case it was probably so much wasted effort.

 

[ViolentPanda]

afaik if you work up to 16 hours a week you can normally get some JSA.

edit: just checked. if i was working 15 hours a week at minimum wage, i'd get the vast majority of my CT paid and i'd get housing benefit.

The problem is with ceasing and re-starting your claim, with all the attendant HB and CTB claim problems that arise from that.

 

[Roadkill]

In other words a complete and utter wanker.

Of course.

 

[ethel]

The problem is with ceasing and re-starting your claim, with all the attendant HB and CTB claim problems that arise from that.

indeed. dwp and hmrc are doing in and out work stuff now though to get it all joined up.

edit: i found a link http://www.dwp.gov.uk/mediacentre/pressreleases/2008/oct/pens106-201008.asp

 

[ViolentPanda]

Except it's not stupid, is it? It's doing exactly what it's designed to: redistribute the absolute minimum of wealth possible without causing people to actually starve in the streets. Do you expect generosity of capitalists?

You miss the point.

 

[ViolentPanda]

indeed. dwp and hmrc are doing in and out work stuff now though to get it all joined up.

edit: i found a link http://www.dwp.gov.uk/mediacentre/pressreleases/2008/oct/pens106-201008.asp

What's utterly sad is that up until about 1999 there was a perfectly good system for doing this already in place.
It was got rid off so that the DWP could shed several thousand "back office" jobs in the name of "efficiency savings".

 

[ViolentPanda]

ANd, if you're really lucky, you have a massive backlog in Housing Benefit claims in a lot of places. When I first claimed housing benefit Plymouth had not less than a twelve week backlog of claims, which made actually leaving home and finding a place to live, with a landlord that would accept DSS and was willing to wait that long was difficult to put it mildly.

A lot of people aren't so lucky and either end up severely in arrears or tossed out on the street in that time. I've come close myself and it's no laughing matter either, sat alone in a cold and draughty flat, just praying that the payment will finally come through so might have a roof over my head come the winter.

Still, to the likes of badco, kbj and derf, we don't deserve anything anyway.

 

[Bakunin]

Still, to the likes of badco, kbj and derf, we don't deserve anything anyway.

That's the way it seems to be with some people. The only way they'd be satisfied is if people turned to crime, in the absence of a welfare state to support them, and then those who did could have a roof over their heads as unwilling guests of the State.

Of course, this rise in crime would probably be used by the Daily Heil readers in the country to justify (or try to, anyway) harsher laws, longer sentences and more prisons to dump people in.

 

[DotCommunist]

That's the way it seems to be with some people. The only way they'd be satisfied is if people turned to crime, in the absence of a welfare state to support them, and then those who did could have a roof over their heads as unwilling guests of the State.

Of course, this rise in crime would probably be used by the Daily Heil readers in the country to justify (or try to, anyway) harsher laws, longer sentences and more prisons to dump people in.

and in turn plush pfi contracts for new superprisons are awarded to politicians to their mates. Hey ho, alls well with the world, fuck the poor.

 

[_angel_]

That's the way it seems to be with some people. The only way they'd be satisfied is if people turned to crime, in the absence of a welfare state to support them, and then those who did could have a roof over their heads as unwilling guests of the State.

Of course, this rise in crime would probably be used by the Daily Heil readers in the country to justify (or try to, anyway) harsher laws, longer sentences and more prisons to dump people in.

Sure, there are some people who'd happily pay about twice as much taxation to dump welfare benefits completely and lock up the claimants in prison instead.

 

[Bakunin]

and in turn plush pfi contracts for new superprisons are awarded to politicians to their mates. Hey ho, alls well with the world, fuck the poor.

You were saying?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7128181.stm

Sure, there are some people who'd happily pay about twice as much taxation to dump welfare benefits completely and lock up the claimants in prison instead.

Yep, a return to the days of the Victorian workhouse and all that went with it would suit some folk down to the ground, it sems.

 

[audiotech]

Still, to the likes of badco, kbj and derf, we don't deserve anything anyway.

Yeah, whilst they each put themselves on glorious pedastals as well, which gets my goat.

There's badco sucking on his crack pipe, Zachor, aka kbj, glorifying in his scabbing and derf exploiting children with impunity.

What really wonderful upright citizens these 'three stooges' are.

 

[trevhagl]

I'm in a country where people work or starve.
They work not moan on about who owes them a living.

At least they do if they're ofered cushy jobs like the one you must have

 

[trevhagl]

Sure, there are some people who'd happily pay about twice as much taxation to dump welfare benefits completely and lock up the claimants in prison instead.

More than TWICE as much - its 40 grand to keep one person in prison

 

[boskysquelch]

You're right, there probably too busy organising an uprising and laying down a few arms caches for future use.

 

[Blagsta]

I haven't claimed in a long time but afaik you can have 16 hours or earn something like 80 quidders before it's deducted

bullshit

 

[phildwyer]

You miss the point.

I beg to differ. Many people on this thread appear to labor under the impression that the welfare state is attempting to help people. But in reality the welfare state is not attempting to do any such thing. That is my point.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I beg to differ. Many people on this thread appear to labor under the impression that the welfare state is attempting to help people. But in reality the welfare state is not attempting to do any such thing. That is my point.

I agree with this. The benefits system is designed to make people miserable. You're not supposed to be unemployed and happy.

 

[DotCommunist]

I beg to differ. Many people on this thread appear to labor under the impression that the welfare state is attempting to help people. But in reality the welfare state is not attempting to do any such thing. That is my point.

It might have started with that ethos, but they've succsesfuly attatched a great deal of shame and hoop-jumping to the procedure. So it's 'work, or be a kyle watching scrounger, be hated by honest working people whom you leech from'

 

[phildwyer]

I agree with this. The benefits system is designed to make people miserable. You're not supposed to be unemployed and happy.

Exactly. Actually you're not really supposed to be unemployed and alive, but the dashed socialists managed to bugger about with that one a bit back in the 1940s.

 

[badco]

it's obvious you can't string a sentence together that makes any sense.

And yet I earn 18k+ a year whilst uni grads have to get there arses outta bed before 9am one day a week to sign on

UNFUCKINGBELEIVABLE

 

[_angel_]

20,000 people lost their jobs last week and here's a scab, along with a fool, who was recently sacked for putting people lives at risk at his workplace, focusing on a Daily Mail stereotype.

Unfuckingbelievable!

Reality doesn't usually intrude into their brains tbh. Like what would happen if they were one of the many that lost their jobs and couldn't find another one.

 

[badco]

bullshit

Which bit?

 

[Bakunin]

And yet I earn 18k+ a year whilst uni grads have to get there arses outta bed before 9am one day a week to sign on

UNFUCKINGBELEIVABLE

Yes, I'm sure they do in the socialist infested never never land that you think you live in.

The reality for people on JSA is pretty much constant money worries, having to choose, for example, between spending money money on food or heating because they may not be able to afford to have both. SO, for many, it can be a choice between being cold or hungry or, if things are really tight, there's no choice at all and you end up being both at once. Been there, done that.

I'm one of the 'luckier' (if you can call me that in my position) welfare claimants in that I get money for disability so I get more and don't have to go through the whole degrading process of signing on once a week or once a fortnight. But I still regularly have to go down the back of the sofa for enough coppers to buy a loaf of bread and a few tins of bean to last me through until the end of a fortnight when the next payment comes through. Do you have any idea how embarassing and degrading it is, counting out a pile of coppers in a supermarket, like some tramp or beggar, on a regular basis? I doubt it.

There's other people worse off than me, and I do keep a sense of perspective about my situation, but it really pisses me off when idiots assume that living on handouts is some sort of sinecure. I can assure them from first hand experience that it isn't.

 

[_angel_]

Yes, I'm sure they do in the socialist infested never never land that you think you live in.

The reality for people on JSA is pretty much constant money worries, having to choose, for example, between spending money money on food or heating because they may not be able to afford to have both. SO, for many, it can be a choice between being cold or hungry or, if things are really tight, there's no choice at all and you end up being both at once. Been there, done that.

I'm one of the 'luckier' (if you can call me that in my position) welfare claimants in that I get money for disability so I get more and don't have to go through the whole degrading process of signing on once a week or once a fortnight. But I still regularly have to go down the back of the sofa for enough coppers to buy a loaf of bread and a few tins of bean to last me through until the end of a fortnight when the next payment comes through. Do you have any idea how embarassing and degrading it is, counting out a pile of coppers in a supermarket, like some tramp or beggar, on a regular basis? I doubt it.

There's other people worse off than me, and I do keep a sense of perspective about my situation, but it really pisses me off when idiots assume that living on handouts is some sort of sinecure. I can assure them from first hand experience that it isn't.

Likewise we only manage reasonably well because of the carer's allowance and boys DLA. I have no idea at all how 'normal' families survive on the DSS.... anyone making it sound like a right hoot -- give up your job tomorrow and try it.