Should the Holocaust justify Israels actions?

[rachamim18]

Nino: So what that Israel did buisness with S. Africa? It did not condone the ideology in any way.

Semitism does matter because one cannot be racist against one's own race. Try to make sense please.

Not all Askenazi regarded Mizrachim as second class citizens but many were appalled at the lack of secular education among them since Zionism at that time was a strictly secular ideology. Then again, Ashkenazim had their own bias amongst different groups of Ashkenziim! The point though is that shared induuction in the army took care of that and today Israel is a bright mosaic with no such problems other than an odd 100 academics in fantasy labd who by the way are free to leave this horrible nation any time they wish to [sooner the better].

Documentary evidence? I probably have anything you could post. Save it.

 

[zoltan]

have a look into the development of weapons - both Nuke & More conventional during the period when both IS & SA were marginilised by their neighbours and I think youl;l fins some interesting reading.

BTW, An SA chum of mine was a medic attached to the SA Nuke section ( I dont have any regiment numbers or whatever - I could google it, but cant be arsed ) & Israeli "advisors" were a constant in this section during the dark days of the Aparthied regime. - agaion, I could google, but cant be bothered

bad puppies indeed BTW - I have no axe to grind , I truly cant be fucked to argue to toss regarding the shithole of the Middle east any longer, but please be accurate when discussing history

ta

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: So what that Israel did buisness with S. Africa? It did not condone the ideology in any way.

Semitism does matter because one cannot be racist against one's own race. Try to make sense please.

Not all Askenazi regarded Mizrachim as second class citizens but many were appalled at the lack of secular education among them since Zionism at that time was a strictly secular ideology. Then again, Ashkenazim had their own bias amongst different groups of Ashkenziim! The point though is that shared induuction in the army took care of that and today Israel is a bright mosaic with no such problems other than an odd 100 academics in fantasy labd who by the way are free to leave this horrible nation any time they wish to [sooner the better].

Documentary evidence? I probably have anything you could post. Save it.

First, race is a social construct and secondly Semites can be racist towards other Semites but I don't suppose it ever occured to you that this form of racism is cultural...no, of course not, you would much rather dodge and weave your way through any 'discussion'.

It doesn't matter what 'business' Israel 'did' with the apartheid regime of SA, the fact that it was involved in some sort of partnership with another pariah state speaks volumes about the people who run your beloved country.

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re:last thread...
Including Israel supplying U.S anti-tank missiles to South Africa, in contravention of international arms embargos....
(IMI initally supplied South Africa with modified TOW 1 missiles, as well as the tooling to produce said weapons, which South Africa used in Angola in the 80's...
Denel will sell you these reverse engineered missiles under the name Swift...
Later, South Africa was supplied with Hellfire missiles for their nacesent helicopter gunship programme, in violation of sanctions...
Said "reverse engineered" missiles are for sale under the name Mokopa...)

 

[nino_savatte]

Re:last thread...
Including Israel supplying U.S anti-tank missiles to South Africa, in contravention of international arms embargos....
(IMI initally supplied South Africa with modified TOW 1 missiles, as well as the tooling to produce said weapons, which South Africa used in Angola in the 80's...
Denel will sell you these reverse engineered missiles under the name Swift...
Later, South Africa was supplied with Hellfire missiles for their nacesent helicopter gunship programme, in violation of sanctions...
Said "reverse engineered" missiles are for sale under the name Mokopa...)

Quite, the leaders of the US and Israel constantly bitch about how such and such country is violating international law, but both are quite happy to flout the law when it suits them.

 

[rachamim18]

Zoltan: Save your words. I doubt anyone on this board has more knowledge of Israeli weapons systems and their pedigree. Most should know how we ALLEGEDLY developed our nuke program with direct assistance from S. Africa including testing on a S. African island.

Israeli cooperation on MILITARY matters with respect to weapons programs has nothing at all to do with a sharing of ideology.

Nino: Race is not a social construct but many things associated with race are. Race is an anthropological fact. A physical anthropologist can many times simply by examing a skull, ascertain that indivudual's race. Why does this disturb you so?

Race does not exist yet Semites can be racist? That is your argument? OK...

 

[zoltan]

Zoltan: Save your words. I doubt anyone on this board has more knowledge of Israeli weapons systems and their pedigree. Most should know how we ALLEGEDLY developed our nuke program with direct assistance from S. Africa including testing on a S. African island.

Israeli cooperation on MILITARY matters with respect to weapons programs has nothing at all to do with a sharing of ideology.
QUOTE]

You ought to have a holiday mate, you seem a bit uptight about things.

 

[rachamim18]

Uptight? Yeah, sometimes I can get that way with armchair generals but it is no big thing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: Race is not a social construct but many things associated with race are. Race is an anthropological fact. A physical anthropologist can many times simply by examing a skull, ascertain that indivudual's race. Why does this disturb you so?

Race does not exist yet Semites can be racist? That is your argument? OK...

Race is a social construct that has been designed to keep people apart and to justify the brutality of one group against another. That is not to say that racism doesn't exist, it does. Racism is a product of the social construction of race. Nationalism almost always contains the germ of racism within it. Indeed the form of nationalism you and Likud, Kadima and others espouse is a form of ethnonationalism, where Israeli Jews are seen as superior ro all other groups and this is linked to the notion of a "divinely ordained" right to the land.

Your claim that race "is not a social construct" flies in the face of accepted wisdom. Quel surprise...but then you're the one who claims "cranial dimensions" are a useful scientific tool whose veracity is beyond scrutiny. The only supporters of "cranial dimensions" are racists and eugenicists whose own views on ethnicity are highly questionable.

Your continued attempts to wriggle and shift only make you look like a total fool. Keep it up.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: And you keep coming off like a bonafide member of the fringe in discounting the very scientific endeavour of physical anthropology. It exists whether you can stomach it or not.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: And you keep coming off like a bonafide member of the fringe in discounting the very scientific endeavour of physical anthropology. It exists whether you can stomach it or not.

Stop talking shite, You've been called on this, have the good grace to admit you're wrong.

 

[ZAMB]

the Israeli state is racist. Furthermore, Jews can be racists

On Democracy now tonight was one of a group of former Israeli soldiers who formed a group called 'Breaking the silence' and are currently touring the US on speaking engagements.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/27/1341203

The interview starts

AMY GOODMAN: Could you talk to us a little bit about what you're hoping to accomplish on your tour?

YEHUDA SHAUL: I’m here in the United States, because, I would say, we in Breaking the Silence see the act of breaking the silence as an act of taking responsibility. As ex-Israeli soldiers, who’ve served as combat soldiers in the Occupied Territories and were there and committed all what we’re talking about, we're part of the occupation. After we were discharged and realized what we were doing and what was going on around us, there was only two options, as I see it. There’s or to lock ourselves in the room, cry and ask forgiveness, or to stand up and take responsibility and demand from others to take responsibility.

So, in my eyes, breaking the silence, standing up and telling the stories and trying to bring people to know and to realize and to understand what it means, occupation, on a daily basis, through these testimonies that we publish and the pictures that we had in the exhibition, is demanding from Israeli society to take responsibility for it, for what is being done in their behalf.

And in my eyes, in our eyes, responsibility doesn't end with ex-soldiers who served there or with Israelis, or the idea if our army as Israelis is doing all these things. Responsibility is to every human being in the world, and for sure for Americans, because in the end of the day for all what Israel does, there is only one country in the world that, you know, the chief of staff and the prime minister of Israel has to report in the end of the day, and that's the United States of America. For that reason, I think that people of America must know what's going on there and must break their own silence and take civil responsibility, human responsibility, to what is being done there.

And all the system is built on fear. It's built of just oppressing, I don't know, of not being able to treat Palestinians as equal human beings to you, because the job is to do things that you don't do to equal human beings, you know, to bump in the middle of the night to a family from the roof and wake up all the family, separate men from women and just search all the house. It's something that you don't do to an equal human being to you. It's something that I never done in Israel, but in the Occupied Territories, as a combat soldier, as an occupier, that's my daily job, 24/7, house after house.

On their website there are a number of taped interviews of former Israeli soldiers talking about their military service, and I defy anyone to watch these and to say that Israelis and the Israeli army are not racist in their treatment of Palestinians. No historical event in the past can possibly be used justify this kind of oppression.
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/video_en.asp

 

[ZAMB]

If true, this would be a strange twist to the whole holocaust tale.

Israel founded using fake British banknotes
MURDO MACLEOD

MORE than £130m worth of British banknotes forged by the Nazis was used by the Jewish underground to help establish the State of Israel.

Wads of notes, which the Germans had forged by concentration camp inmates, ended up being used after the Second World War to pay for the transport of Jews to then British-occupied Palestine, and to buy weapons for the embryonic Israeli armed forces.

The revelations are contained in a new book which has been published in the USA and Germany, written by a former Time magazine journalist, and which details how the Nazis sought to undermine the British economy and what became of the cash they produced.

The Germans produced £132m of forged Bank of England notes during the Second World War as part of an audacious plan to undermine and destroy the British economy. The sum was worth about £3bn in today's money. While the plan ultimately failed to deal the UK a fatal blow, it nevertheless frightened the Bank of England into withdrawing all notes worth more than £5 from circulation until the 1960s.

The notes were produced by a team of forgers and printing experts gathered from among Jewish concentration camp inmates. In the book, Krueger's Men, Lawrence Malkin reveals how some of the cash ended up in the hands of the Jewish underground at the end of the Second World War.

The Nazis laundered millions of pounds through a series of schemes including using business figures in occupied Europe who had concealed their Jewish origins. One of these businessman was Yaakov Levy, a successful jeweller and art expert in pre-war Germany.

In the weeks following the end of the war in Europe in May 1945, Levy got supplies to Jewish refugees in Northern Italy who were fleeing south in hope of travelling to Israel. He also handed out large wads each containing about £50,000 of fake cash to organisers looking to help Jewish Holocaust survivors get from Europe to Israel.

In his book, which draws on new information from UK, US, German and Israeli archives, Malkin wrote: "The Jewish underground wanted van Harten's [Levy's] money and did not care whether it was counterfeit or real. They passed the bogus pounds to supply Holocaust survivors and help the Brichah [Jewish escape organisation] smuggle more refugees to Palestine. On the international arms market, they used the money to buy weapons for Jews arming themselves against the British and then the Arabs."

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1563532006

 

[nino_savatte]

I should have said (as well) anyone of any ethnic group can be a racist. Racism isn't limited to 'white' people.