Should the Arab states declare war on Israel?

[nino_savatte]

A state made up of those that have been brutally oppressed for a thousand years or so most every where they've lived and have always been the minority, & begun the state with refugees from about the biggest genocide in history.

But then they made the mistake of going way too far to the point where they foolishly lash out & over respond to threats & attacks & are turning most of the world against them.

Your first paragraph is a rather typical narrativisation. Presumably the Mizrahi didn't feature at all on your radar; nor did the Bene Israel, Beta Israel or the Lemba. Perhaps you don't realise (or want to know) that the largest Jewish population in the Middle East was in Iraq....until the British got other ideas and acted as midwives to the Zionist project.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And the Iranians and the Chinese etc should also stop supplying the Hamas murderers with weapons as well.

This would be the same HAMAS whose main assault weapon is the M16 rifle firing 5.56mm NATO standard ammunition?
The only problem with that is that neither Iran nor China manufacture M16s or ammunition for it, and there aren't enough floating around for there to be the same kind of 2nd-hand market that there is for Soviet or Chinese AK-variants. The only CHinese weaponry/materiel that HAMAS have used are RPG rockets, which could have come from any of 60+ nations besides Iran that re-sell Chinese arms.
Go on, take a guess which nation-state supplied HAMAS in it's early years with a massive cache of M16 assault rifles and ammunition.

Once you've answered that, have a think about just how stupid you make yourself look every time you sound off on something you know little or nothing about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A state made up of those that have been brutally oppressed for a thousand years or so most every where they've lived and have always been the minority, & begun the state with refugees from about the biggest genocide in history.

Tom, I strongly recommend, as I have to Zachor, that you actually have knowledge of the subject you expound on, otherwise you make yourself look even more stupid than is usual.
1) It's 2,000 years, not 1,000. The Diaspora started with the Roman destruction of Israel in the second half of the first century AD.
2) The state of Israel was not "begun" with "refugees from about the biggest genocide in history". The construction of the state of Israel was already an ongoing concern prior to Nazism existing. Some Zionists appropriated the Holocaust (but still retained their distaste bordering on hatred of its' victims) as an excuse to shift into a higher gear.

 

[TomUS]

This would be the same HAMAS whose main assault weapon is the M16 rifle firing 5.56mm NATO standard ammunition?
The only problem with that is that neither Iran nor China manufacture M16s or ammunition for it, and there aren't enough floating around for there to be the same kind of 2nd-hand market that there is for Soviet or Chinese AK-variants. The only CHinese weaponry/materiel that HAMAS have used are RPG rockets, which could have come from any of 60+ nations besides Iran that re-sell Chinese arms.
Go on, take a guess which nation-state supplied HAMAS in it's early years with a massive cache of M16 assault rifles and ammunition.

Once you've answered that, have a think about just how stupid you make yourself look every time you sound off on something you know little or nothing about.

I think the reference was to rockets/missiles, not assault rifles. Israel has been claiming that the longer range rockets being fired from Gaza aren't made there but smuggled through tunnels from Egypt.

 

[Zachor]

I think the reference was to rockets/missiles, not assault rifles. Israel has been claiming that the longer range rockets being fired from Gaza aren't made there but smuggled through tunnels from Egypt.

Yes I was referring to missiles not firearms.

 

[TomUS]

Tom, I strongly recommend, as I have to Zachor, that you actually have knowledge of the subject you expound on, otherwise you make yourself look even more stupid than is usual.
1) It's 2,000 years, not 1,000. The Diaspora started with the Roman destruction of Israel in the second half of the first century AD.
2) The state of Israel was not "begun" with "refugees from about the biggest genocide in history". The construction of the state of Israel was already an ongoing concern prior to Nazism existing. Some Zionists appropriated the Holocaust (but still retained their distaste bordering on hatred of its' victims) as an excuse to shift into a higher gear.

Perhaps you shouldn't be quite so picky, condescending & insulting. Does it really make any difference whether Jews had been oppressed for 1000 or 2000 years? And, yes the beginnings of Israel existed before the Nazis but it's obvious to me that Israel wouldn't exist if it weren't for the holocaust. You think otherwise?

 

[Random]

How do you think they would react soulman?

judging by the vitriol against relatively mild criticism issued to them by the UN its prob safe to say they'd go apeshit.

You have a good point - it is far more likely that the US would attempt to destabilise israel with those methods a la Iran.


its strange though, a few years ago the idea of punitive sanctions on israel would be unthinkable, now it is actually being discussed by ministers in the EU and the UN, and sanctions were actually imposed by new zealand after a spying case IIRC.

it's no wonder that people are advocating the logical next step. has any politician called for it publically?

This won't happen under Obama - as the first Northern US Democrat president for a while, and with Hillary next to him, he can't afford to start to piss off his East Coast base along with the nocon Christian Zionist attack dogs.

It could only happen under an isolationist president who's already hated in the North. So probably a republican in trouble who cuts israel loose.

 

[nino_savatte]

Perhaps you shouldn't be quite so picky, condescending & insulting. Does it really make any difference whether Jews had been oppressed for 1000 or 2000 years? And, yes the beginnings of Israel existed before the Nazis but it's obvious to me that Israel wouldn't exist if it weren't for the holocaust. You think otherwise?

Your version of events is selective: the notion of Israel existed well before 1948. I noticed that you also ignored my post. Why?

Indeed, yours is the line trotted out by the state of Israel to justify its continued occupation of the West Bank and its continued brutalisation of the Palestinian people.

 

[hipipol]

A state made up of those that have been brutally oppressed for a thousand years or so most every where they've lived and have always been the minority, & begun the state with refugees from about the biggest genocide in history.

But then they made the mistake of going way too far to the point where they foolishly lash out & over respond to threats & attacks & are turning most of the world against them.

Cant see that Treblinka etc were manned by Palestinians
As it seems that the main persecutors were European there would be much greater reason for such violence if the enclave being bombed to fuck was around Berlin

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes I was referring to missiles not firearms.

You grasped at that straw pretty quickly, didn't you? If you meant "missiles" then why not say "missiles" in the first place?

Still, the state of Israel may have claimed (for what, 2-3 years now?) that Iran is supplying weapons to HAMAS, but what have they substantiated those claims with (given that we're talking about a state that possesses one of the finest and most successful external security agencies in the world), hmmm?
Mostly hearsay, and references to the fact that Iran imports Chinese arms, while "forgetting" to mention just how many nation-states import Chinese arms, and how many of those re-sell them.

Really, try harder, you're making yourself look dumb.

 

[Zachor]

You grasped at that straw pretty quickly, didn't you? If you meant "missiles" then why not say "missiles" in the first place?

Still, the state of Israel may have claimed (for what, 2-3 years now?) that Iran is supplying weapons to HAMAS, but what have they substantiated those claims with (given that we're talking about a state that possesses one of the finest and most successful external security agencies in the world), hmmm?
Mostly hearsay, and references to the fact that Iran imports Chinese arms, while "forgetting" to mention just how many nation-states import Chinese arms, and how many of those re-sell them.

Really, try harder, you're making yourself look dumb.

I accept I should have said missiles in the first place.

Re the Chinese yes (professional hat on at the moment) there are many many issues with the Chinese and their lack of end use and end user controls on their goods.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Perhaps you shouldn't be quite so picky, condescending & insulting.

Why not? If you're retailing bullshit as fact, then you should expect to be called on it.

Does it really make any difference whether Jews had been oppressed for 1000 or 2000 years?

Yes. If you exclude the first millennium, you elide some of the fundamental historical events that formed European Jewry.

And, yes the beginnings of Israel existed before the Nazis but it's obvious to me that Israel wouldn't exist if it weren't for the holocaust.

No? Arguably it wouldn't exist at it's current scale, because arguably the state wouldn't have had the fig-leaf of the shoah for it's wars of conquest, but it would still have become a state around about the same time, in line with decisions that had been taken as far back as the 1920s. There was always a powerful motivation for the British Empire and the USA to create a Jewish National Home, not least their own institutional anti-Semitism.

You think otherwise?

I KNOW otherwise, as would you if you knew what you were talking about.

You've bought into a version of a creation-myth. Like all creation-myths, the creators are reflected as heroes, while historical realities go hang.

 

[dylanredefined]

Arabs cant win if they do .Though think there would be a lot of people cheering them on from the side lines if they did .If only to get israel to use its millitary force to flatten the arabs once again.And appear the victim while doing it.

 

[soulman]

To answer to the question of this thread: a big NO

The problem is that as far as ideologies as Zionism and Islamist fundamentalism exists and all this hatred is passed to the people, mixed together with nationalist ideas, there will be no end to this ongoing situation.

The real victims of all this are the people, the people of ALL SIDES, palestinians and israeli, who in the name of some "religion", which is an ideology promoted by specific people in order to serve their private profit and purposes, hate and kill each other.

An escalation of this crisis, with the other arab states joining in, and possible NATO or UN intervation, will completely fuck up the whole region and the consequences will be horrible for the whole world.

It may have escaped your attention Dimitris but the people have been suffering for a long time already, and the the whole region is already fucked up. What do you suggest as a solution?

 

[hipipol]

Your version of events is selective: the notion of Israel existed well before 1948. I noticed that you also ignored my post. Why?

Indeed, yours is the line trotted out by the state of Israel to justify its continued occupation of the West Bank and its continued brutalisation of the Palestinian people.

Yes predates WW2 by at least one world war actually
Balfour Declartion


Balfours covering letter - he was a niave fucker wasn't he?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes predates WW2 by at least one world war actually
Balfour Declartion


Balfours covering letter - he was a niave fucker wasn't he?

He was. It didn't help matters that Balfour trusted his bureaucrats and advisers to be as rational as he believed himself to be.
There's been a contention among historians for some time that Balfour took advice from Herbert Samuels, believing that because Samuels wasn't a religious Jew, that his views were somehow neutral on the subject of a Jewish National Home. Samuels, of course, went on to be a notoriously pro-Zionist and anti-Arab High Commissioner of the Mandate.

 

[Dimitris]

It may have escaped your attention Dimitris but the people have been suffering for a long time already, and the the whole region is already fucked up. What do you suggest as a solution?

And a full scale attack against Israel would finish the problem you think? How? NATO would definately also jump in, the war in Gaza would escalate to a whole big region and not just Gaza, some countries there also have nukes, who really knows how would this end.. War never really solved anything.

The solution should definately be PEACEFULL and come after discussion and negotiations not more blood shed ....

You want to hear my thought for a solution? Well first of all let me say that there is no immediate solution to this... What I mean is a PROPER solution not an another peace treaty that will last for a few month more. An another peace treaty could possibly be signed and will be sooner or later but this will just postpone the war a few months back ...

Now the "easiest" would be a 2 state solution maybe on the borders on 1967, but I do not think that this is really a solution... Hatred between the public would still exist, and noone would quarantee that Israel would not start continues blockades to that state, so violence could start again ...

So what I think, in terms of a "parliamentary democratic" state, the best is to have 1 STATE TOGETHER, with 2 parliaments, 1 israeli and 1 palestinian but with a COMMON government. Only in this way, in a common government it could possibly be reassured that no violence will start again.... But in order this "solution" to be viable, ideologies like islamic fantamentalism and zionism should stop be promoted to the people.... How is that possible? With Education. Tell me really, why would an israeli or a palestinian worker, a farmer, have a problem with each other? Why would a israeli worker want to kill a palestinian one? There is no reason.. If war still exists there, if the situation after 60 years is not resolved, is because the state, therefore the government and their bosses, want to gain something out of all these....

I will give you an example... Israel started building a wall at the borders with palestine... The palestinians and Arafat himself correctly condemed that action... Israel though was buying cement for that wall, from a company at Saudi Arabia, the main shareholder of that company being.... Arafat's wife
So what you believe did Arafat really have a problem with that wall or not? You see politicians use the public however they want, in order to serve their private interest, and as far as their interest favours war, there will be war.

The suffering of the people there has not escaped my attention.. but a new even bigger war would only make this suffering bigger.

 

[soulman]

And a full scale attack against Israel would finish the problem you think? How? NATO would definately also jump in, the war in Gaza would escalate to a whole big region and not just Gaza, some countries there also have nukes, who really knows how would this end.. War never really solved anything.

The solution should definately be PEACEFULL and come after discussion and negotiations not more blood shed ....

You want to hear my thought for a solution? Well first of all let me say that there is no immediate solution to this... What I mean is a PROPER solution not an another peace treaty that will last for a few month more. An another peace treaty could possibly be signed and will be sooner or later but this will just postpone the war a few months back ...

Now the "easiest" would be a 2 state solution maybe on the borders on 1967, but I do not think that this is really a solution... Hatred between the public would still exist, and noone would quarantee that Israel would not start continues blockades to that state, so violence could start again ...

So what I think, in terms of a "parliamentary democratic" state, the best is to have 1 STATE TOGETHER, with 2 parliaments, 1 israeli and 1 palestinian but with a COMMON government. Only in this way, in a common government it could possibly be reassured that no violence will start again.... But in order this "solution" to be viable, ideologies like islamic fantamentalism and zionism should stop be promoted to the people.... How is that possible? With Education. Tell me really, why would an israeli or a palestinian worker, a farmer, have a problem with each other? Why would a israeli worker want to kill a palestinian one? There is no reason.. If war still exists there, if the situation after 60 years is not resolved, is because the state, therefore the government and their bosses, want to gain something out of all these....

I will give you an example... Israel started building a wall at the borders with palestine... The palestinians and Arafat himself correctly condemed that action... Israel though was buying cement for that wall, from a company at Saudi Arabia, the main shareholder of that company being.... Arafat's wife
So what you believe did Arafat really have a problem with that wall or not? You see politicians use the public however they want, in order to serve their private interest, and as far as their interest favours war, there will be war.

The suffering of the people there has not escaped my attention.. but a new even bigger war would only make this suffering bigger.

You'll notice that my opening post was a question rather than a statement of what I believe should happen. Ideally I would like to see the people on all sides reach an understanding between themselves that breaches any artificial boundaries set up by politicians and ideologues. The thing is I don't see that happening any time soon because ideology on both sides has taken root too deeply within the peoples.

What I can see happening though is the US turning away from Israel at sometime in the future because it will no longer be viable, either financially or politically, for them to support Israel any longer. That's not to say things in the region will necessarily change but there are economic factors at play within the US than might necessitate not only a tightening of purse strings but also a drawing away from overseas adventurism.

 

[gabi]

In answer to the OP. Yes.

 

[durruti02]

no .. and fuck of gabi you racist wanker

 

[Riklet]

Fuck no. The arab leaders are hardly the heroic supporters of the Palestinians that they claim to be; just as with a lot of Middle-Eastern politics it's a load of fucking hot air to cover their tracks. Half these states are busy imprisoning/torturing Islamic militants, journalists, critics of their regimes, homosexuals etc etc. Just because the Israeli regime acts rather barbarically in "defence" of its nation doesn't excuse the corrupt and cold blooded cretins who'll happily see Palestinians killed if it means they can use it to their own ends.

Then there's always the fact that Israel is a legitimate nation established by the U.N. where the rights of the individual are protected far more than in neighbouring countries, n has a significant Israeli-Arab population. Personally I can't justify warfare and killing of people, so to call upon Israel to be "punished" would seem to make me just as fucking clueless and hypocritical as those who fully back the strikes on Gaza. The idea of bombing people into submission in this day and age is a whimsical fucking fantasy, in the end you're just creating more violence, as shown by HAMAS continuing to "resist" by shooting rockets into Israel and the Israeli bombings in Gaza which will no doubt mean this conflict will certainly go on far beyond the lifetime of anyone who posts on this message board.

I'm sure some twat will accuse me of being some pro-Zionist or some fucking shit like that, but you couldn't be further from the truth. That said, the arab states have used and prolongued the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians selfishly and to their own advantage for the past 60 years, and they aren't going to stop now. Just look at Egypt; the Palestinians get too close to the border and they shoot them... they're the unwanted people of the middle east. I also think there's a lot of anger against Israeli actions on this site which ends up somewhat justifying (in a very woolly eyed way) the idea that Isreal/Palestine is ALL Palestinian land. Fuck that shit, land doesn't belong to anyone, and to believe so makes you just as bigoted and hypocritical as any Zionist. Many of the Arab states are perfectly willing to carry on spewing their bullshit about throwing the Jews into the sea to uphold the ummah with their wonderful Palestinian brothers whilst exploiting and opressing them just as much themselves. Look at fucking Dubai, sure they'll stop the fireworks for an evening, but who's building the big shitty buildings in that hellhole, on minimum wage and dying of sunstroke and exhaustion? Palestinian labourers, no doubt......

For Palestinians and Israelis to live and share the same nation in peace would be fucking wonderful, as unlikely as that may be. The Palestinians hardly need the Israelis as enemies to prevent this when there's the nations that surround them though. Very fucking depressing...

 

[hipipol]

Riklet - Top rant

Israel is a legitimate nation established by the UN - er no, it gained its de facto status via a terrorist war against the mandate of the British, it was essentially Truemans backing of the idea, against the advise of his cabinet, that actually pushed thru an acceptance by the UN of the facts on the ground.
The original state of Israel is nothing like the 67 borders.
Its impossible to use the UN on the one hand to say something is legitimate when that state has also ignored UN resolutions to return annexed land

Its basically a European Colony in the Middle east and - a bit like the Crusader states before it- has mutated away from its idealistic roots to become a sort of Jewish version of Syria. I think the anger directed towards Israel is based on this belief in its European credentials, that it should somehow uphold the same values - I dont recall any bits of Derry being bombed by the RAF during the troubles so I suspect a divergence between what we see as acceptable and what Israel does - it does not, never really has but has an effective propagande machine that continues to portray itself as such
All colonies have an awful impact on the natives. Whatever anyone may say about Israel having a substantial Arab population, I doubt anyone can imagine a time when one will become PM, they are marginalised and simply tolerated, no more than that. It can only end in rivers of blood I'm afraid, I see no other likely outcome

 

[laptop]

Israel is... basically a European Colony in the Middle east

No, it's an outpost of the US in the Med.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck no. The arab leaders are hardly the heroic supporters of the Palestinians that they claim to be; just as with a lot of Middle-Eastern politics it's a load of fucking hot air to cover their tracks. Half these states are busy imprisoning/torturing Islamic militants, journalists, critics of their regimes, homosexuals etc etc. Just because the Israeli regime acts rather barbarically in "defence" of its nation doesn't excuse the corrupt and cold blooded cretins who'll happily see Palestinians killed if it means they can use it to their own ends.

True, as most people know. It's fairly obvious through their own treatment of Palestinian refugees that some of these states see them merely as political bargaining chips at best.

Then there's always the fact that Israel is a legitimate nation established by the U.N....

I'm afraid not.
The UN declaration was, IIRC, pre-empted by a unilateral declaration of establishment. By a day or two. If they'd gone with the UN establishment they'd have been obliged to comply with some policies that weren't agreeable to those who sought to govern the state of Israel.

...where the rights of the individual are protected far more than in neighbouring countries...

Some rights. Of course, the state of Israel still has arbitrary detention without trial as a valid criminal justice practice on it's statute books, so in everyday terms you're no safer.

n has a significant Israeli-Arab population. Personally I can't justify warfare and killing of people, so to call upon Israel to be "punished" would seem to make me just as fucking clueless and hypocritical as those who fully back the strikes on Gaza. The idea of bombing people into submission in this day and age is a whimsical fucking fantasy, in the end you're just creating more violence, as shown by HAMAS continuing to "resist" by shooting rockets into Israel and the Israeli bombings in Gaza which will no doubt mean this conflict will certainly go on far beyond the lifetime of anyone who posts on this message board.

You're entitled to your opinions.

I'm sure some twat will accuse me of being some pro-Zionist or some fucking shit like that, but you couldn't be further from the truth.

Perish the thought. Ill-informed, perhaps, but not pro-Zionist.

That said, the arab states have used and prolongued the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians selfishly and to their own advantage for the past 60 years, and they aren't going to stop now.

States tend to seek advantage for it's own sake, regardless of the effect upon it's citizenry, up to and until the citizenry are no longer willing to "take it".

Just look at Egypt; the Palestinians get too close to the border and they shoot them... they're the unwanted people of the middle east.

Which kind of misses the point about Egypt's political bind, which is that given that they are the second-largest recipient of US largesse after the state of Israel, and that they rely on import from and export to the state of Israel as a pillar of their economy, they have no real choice but to accede to Israeli wishes on the matter.

I also think there's a lot of anger against Israeli actions on this site which ends up somewhat justifying (in a very woolly eyed way) the idea that Isreal/Palestine is ALL Palestinian land.

In my experience there are very few seriously-minded posters on this forum who want to see anything more than the "green line" borders re-established.

Fuck that shit, land doesn't belong to anyone, and to believe so makes you just as bigoted and hypocritical as any Zionist. Many of the Arab states are perfectly willing to carry on spewing their bullshit about throwing the Jews into the sea to uphold the ummah with their wonderful Palestinian brothers whilst exploiting and opressing them just as much themselves. Look at fucking Dubai, sure they'll stop the fireworks for an evening, but who's building the big shitty buildings in that hellhole, on minimum wage and dying of sunstroke and exhaustion? Palestinian labourers, no doubt......

You've missed so many of the dynamics of the tensions between "Arab" nations and even between the various Islamic sects or the degrees of piety within populations that you obviously don't realise quite how prejudiced your tirade comes across as.

 

[nino_savatte]

a significant Israeli-Arab population

Who, for the most part, consider themselves to be Palestinian.

 

[nino_savatte]

No, it's an outpost of the US in the Med.

Or the US Mini Me, depending on your pov.

 

[Aldebaran]

Answer to OP question: No. Thank you for the thought though, to have yet an other US Capitalist driven venture expanded to yet an other set of countries while saving the Sponsor State from having it on its own soil.
You may come to volunteer to fight in the first ranks, I shall pay for your trip and even your uniform.

salaam.

 

[soulman]

Answer to OP question: No. Thank you for the thought though, to have yet an other US Capitalist driven venture expanded to yet an other set of countries while saving the Sponsor State from having it on its own soil.
You may come to volunteer to fight in the first ranks, I shall pay for your trip and even your uniform.

salaam.

Thank you for wanting to share your wealth with me. I figured it was better to get the anger and rage out first and then hopefully we can all have a more rational discussion. Well as rational as it can be while the bullies are still given a free hand.

 

[durruti02]

No, it's an outpost of the US in the Med.

yes very true

 

[Aldebaran]

Thank you for wanting to share your wealth with me. I figured it was better to get the anger and rage out first and then hopefully we can all have a more rational discussion. Well as rational as it can be while the bullies are still given a free hand.

If you were Iranian, you would have the US-led World Media and a great deal of innocent public opinion all over you for writing "Should Israel be bombed into the ground?" on a message board. That post would very quickly get its own life and also wander into the world of blogs, mails, message boards and internet(s) in general as the example of The Iranian Danger to docile, peaceful Israel.
From there it would be only a step to declare that you were in fact an Iranian official, and once you started to argue you aren't even Iranian, your fame would grow by the second because you clearly confirmed by that denial that you are nothing else but one of those dangerous, hysterical, lying fanatics. Next thing you know you are quoted by the US president as example of why Iran should be bombed, not Israel.
By then you would need me to offer you your own Media Empire of the size and impact of the Murdoch Empire to save your damaged reputation.
But you would no doubt the hero of Palestinian kids, for as far as they survived the current massacre.

salaam.