frogwoman
Let them eat newts
did you even read what i wrote?
Should the Arab states declare war on Israel?
- Thread starter soulman
- Start date
did you even read what i wrote?
No of course not but if this continues I honestly think we could eventually see NATO planes over Tel Aviv in another "humanitarian intervention" in a couple of years.
Dont think it could never happen.
Israel needs to stop this suicidal madness for the sake of its own citizens as much as for the Palestinians themselves - they won't be able to rely on America's aid for ever and may well eventually go the same way as other regimes that outlive their usefulness to the hegemonic power and need to make way for "democracy".
I've often said that Israel needs to stop otherwise someone else, one day, will MAKE them stop.
happy new year everyone btw. I hope you all did something fun like I did and didn't just sit on here.
This is pretty much my thinking on the situation. It can't go on forever because when you look at the situation it is madness. Really it's insane what is happening there.
The reason I mentioned the Arab states is because I think if the US decides that they have no more use for Israel it's far more likely that other states in the region will be used to destabalise Israel, rather than an outright attack by the US.
Although there's a big issue around Israel's nuclear weapons.
If the US decides that having Israel as a client state is no longer viable then there are options like invoking inspections of the nuclear facilities that Israel has. How Israel would react to being treated like a 'rogue state' is another interesting thought.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
How do you think they would react soulman?
judging by the vitriol against relatively mild criticism issued to them by the UN its prob safe to say they'd go apeshit.
You have a good point - it is far more likely that the US would attempt to destabilise israel with those methods a la Iran.
its strange though, a few years ago the idea of punitive sanctions on israel would be unthinkable, now it is actually being discussed by ministers in the EU and the UN, and sanctions were actually imposed by new zealand after a spying case IIRC.
it's no wonder that people are advocating the logical next step. has any politician called for it publically?
judging by the vitriol against relatively mild criticism issued to them by the UN its prob safe to say they'd go apeshit.
You have a good point - it is far more likely that the US would attempt to destabilise israel with those methods a la Iran.
its strange though, a few years ago the idea of punitive sanctions on israel would be unthinkable, now it is actually being discussed by ministers in the EU and the UN, and sanctions were actually imposed by new zealand after a spying case IIRC.
it's no wonder that people are advocating the logical next step. has any politician called for it publically?
untethered
For industry & decency
Perhaps the Arab states could get their own houses in order with respect to democracy, the rule of law, sponsoring terrorism, etc., before they start casting stones at others.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Israel isn't a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, so any installation inspections would have to be ad hoc and conducted under force. Even the US isn't stupid enough to violate the territorial integrity of a nation it's been supporting as a "beacon of democracy" in the Middle East for such a reason. They'd have to work in a long spin to be able to pull that off without getting called on it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Perhaps their form of governance matters less than you seem to think it does. It's certainly the case that what you've said gets trotted out by many pro-Zionist pundits in the media every time the state of Israel receives any censure from "the Arab world" for it's oppression of the Palestinians.
I'd have thought that in your world of clear cut morality, the evil of a deed did not vary according to the type of regime the people censuring the deed lived with/under.
untethered
For industry & decency
I'm not suggesting that Israel is beyond reproach. I'm suggesting that reproach should come from someone with the moral authority to give it.
I think it would depend on how it was done. I doubt at the moment the US would openly support the deployment of weapons inspectors. However that's not to say they wouldn't stage manage it at some time in the future if it was seen to be in their strategic interests.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
TWATZ - The War Against Zionism.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
No. We need non-military solutions. Civilian solutions.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
I can imagine it now. "Israel is in violation of countless UN resolutions, is guilty of ethnic cleansing, has weapons of mass destruction capable of hitting Europe and our key allies like Turkey. It is a threat to the stability of the region and for global security, but it has been aided and abetted by powerful allies such as - no. Hold on. That can't be right, can it?"
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
What we should be pushing for is non-violent punitive action against Israel. There's already a de facto travel ban on some of Israel's leaders travelling to the UK and some other European countries. We should be pushing for that ban to be extended and diplomatic relations to be suspended.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Such as?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Spot on.
Dimitris
Well-Known Member
To answer to the question of this thread: a big NO
The problem is that as far as ideologies as Zionism and Islamist fundamentalism exists and all this hatred is passed to the people, mixed together with nationalist ideas, there will be no end to this ongoing situation.
The real victims of all this are the people, the people of ALL SIDES, palestinians and israeli, who in the name of some "religion", which is an ideology promoted by specific people in order to serve their private profit and purposes, hate and kill each other.
An escalation of this crisis, with the other arab states joining in, and possible NATO or UN intervation, will completely fuck up the whole region and the consequences will be horrible for the whole world.
The problem is that as far as ideologies as Zionism and Islamist fundamentalism exists and all this hatred is passed to the people, mixed together with nationalist ideas, there will be no end to this ongoing situation.
The real victims of all this are the people, the people of ALL SIDES, palestinians and israeli, who in the name of some "religion", which is an ideology promoted by specific people in order to serve their private profit and purposes, hate and kill each other.
An escalation of this crisis, with the other arab states joining in, and possible NATO or UN intervation, will completely fuck up the whole region and the consequences will be horrible for the whole world.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
You're rather perspicacious in a blinkered style too.
You assume that Israel is some sort of shining example of democratic values but tell me this; what sort of state would declare itself for one sort of people and deny rights to others; treating them as subhuman while rationalising the destruction and murder that is meted out to the Other? What sort of state tells its people that the destruction of an Other is for their own 'security'? What sort of state lies to the world when the entire planet can see what is happening with its own eyes?Go on, apologise for mass murder; you're no better than those who carry out these atrocities.
untethered
For industry & decency
What perspicacity you have.
I stand in awe of your sophisticated and nuanced counter-argument.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Like your 'argument' stands up to scrutiny. Do one.
No, I don't think Israel should be bombed to the ground, but A LOT more hard diplomatic pressure should be used against them.
Yes indeed, as is so often the case.
Temple? What temple? Do you mean the western wall?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
In terms of ammunition, given the state of Israel's ammunition production facilities (massive enough that IMI export ammo world-wide), we'd be better off not selling them the precursors to bullets and explosives. Stop selling them the end-product and they'll just shift their production to internal use rather than export.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Another look at this reveals the apologetic manner you have adopted with regards to this crisis. Presumably, you have no qualms about the deaths of over 400 Palestinians (Israel has only lost 3 or 4 people). I guess the issue of proportionality never entered your thoughts - eh?
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
this.
While I agree with you, our governments have a habit of undermining such democratic governments when the 'wrong' people are elected.
As for sponsoring 'terrorism', WE should get our own house in order first.
And the Iranians and the Chinese etc should also stop supplying the Hamas murderers with weapons as well.
A state made up of those that have been brutally oppressed for a thousand years or so most every where they've lived and have always been the minority, & begun the state with refugees from about the biggest genocide in history.
But then they made the mistake of going way too far to the point where they foolishly lash out & over respond to threats & attacks & are turning most of the world against them.
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