Should extremists be banned from U75? or at least have their PMs scrutinised?

[james_walsh]

That progress only happened within the last 30 years or so. Your gross generalisations could also be applied to Catholics, half the C of E and a hefty chunk of people who watch Coronation Street.

Woman have had property rights for centuries in western europe, nor have we had the death plenty for homosexuality for centuries (excluding nazi germany maybe)..

 

[HarrisonSlade]

That progress only happened within the last 30 years or so.

Jonathon Swift happened over 300 years ago. If he had been a moslem in this day and age he would have probably had a fatwa against him. And anyway, it took a lot of violent hatred against the dogma of Christianity to create the secular world we have, pretty much, lived in since the death of William of Orange.

Your gross generalisations could also be applied to Catholics, half the C of E and a hefty chunk of people who watch Coronation Street.

What makes you think that I have time for Catholics, Protestants or the dregs of society who watch SoapOperas?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Woman have had property rights for centuries in western europe, nor have we had the death plenty for homosexuality for centuries (excluding nazi germany maybe)..

Property rights for women have been patchy in Europe. Some countries extended full rights (as you said) centuries ago, others took until the first halfd of the 20th century.

As for the "death penalty", just because the state doesn't allow it doesn't mean people haven't die and don't continue to die because they're gay and some bigot thinks it's fine to snuff them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Jonathon Swift happened over 300 years ago. If he had been a moslem in this day and age he would have probably had a fatwa against him. And anyway, it took a lot of violent hatred against the dogma of Christianity to create the secular world we have, pretty much, lived in since the death of William of Orange.

Secular world my arse!

You mean the "secular world" that still (through the house of lords) allows religions a say in the way the country is run?
You mean the "secular world" where churches still have such great control over people's lives?

We don't yet live in a secular world imo, we still live in a world that tries to be secular despite the grip religion still has on the country.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

As for the "death penalty", just because the state doesn't allow it doesn't mean people haven't die and don't continue to die because they're gay and some bigot thinks it's fine to snuff them.

Is that the individual or the collective en masse?

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Secular world my arse!

You mean the "secular world" that still (through the house of lords) allows religions a say in the way the country is run?
You mean the "secular world" where churches still have such great control over people's lives?

We don't yet live in a secular world imo, we still live in a world that tries to be secular despite the grip religion still has on the country.

Brasseye, Jam, Hardcore pornography on the top shelves of newsagents, Big Brother with a woman wanking herself on a bottle. I think you will find that the Church is not as influential as your dream world has you believe it to be.

 

[james_walsh]

Secular world my arse!

You mean the "secular world" that still (through the house of lords) allows religions a say in the way the country is run?
You mean the "secular world" where churches still have such great control over people's lives?

We don't yet live in a secular world imo, we still live in a world that tries to be secular despite the grip religion still has on the country.

I don't think anyone (except the odd trol) is suggesting that western europe has got to ,where we want it to be, as a society.
But i am suggesting that there is buggar all comparasion with islamic society!

 

[Struwwelpeter]

What makes you think that I have time for Catholics, Protestants or the dregs of society who watch SoapOperas?

I don't - but you haven't singled them out for your broad brush dismissal of their cultural values. Homophobia and sexism are still regretably widely accepted in many non-moslem parts of society.

I don't defend those aspects of Islam but their are a lot of other "extremist" views out there. Banning them won't win the argument; if the argument is a valid one it will, in time prevail.

btw, I don't think I'm being hopelessly idealistic in that last point - the time required might be many generations. However, banning groups does not ban the ideas but allows them to fester in isolation. IMHO, the only reason for banning such views from U75 would be if they threaten the continued existence of U75, not because the ideas themselves are distasteful.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

However, banning groups does not ban the ideas but allows them to fester in isolation. .

Yeah but when you look at groups such as the BNP, you will find that when you allow this vermenous neo Nazi scum to have a voice on National TV then you will find that they can win Council seats in Local Elections.

 

[fishfingerer]

You're a tory aren't you.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Woman have had property rights for centuries in western europe, nor have we had the death plenty for homosexuality for centuries (excluding nazi germany maybe)..

this is not entirely true.

Homosexual oppression in the UK (1952 http://www.turing.org.uk/bio/part8.html)
Operation Spanner: 16 men convicted for causing marks, bruises, cuts & other non-serious injuries in the course of sexual activity with consenting adults (1990) UK Court Appeal fails (1992) European Court of Human Rights fails (1997)
Female rights in the UK: to be a doctor (1865), to go to university (1869), to gain basic property rights (1882) women allowed to be elected to borough and county councils/elected mayor (1907) to vote ( to stand as member of parliament (1918) "Representation of the People Act" gave women of property over the age of 30 the right to vote (1918) Women achieved full political equality (1928)

N.B.

1) Women in switzerland did not gain political rights until 1971! http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/7/newsid_2738000/2738475.stm (Finland were the first, i think, in the first decade of the 20th C)
2) AFAIK, "The Bible" ie. Tanach/Pentateuch forms the foundation for Mosaic & Halachic Law and this is where u find the death penalty for homosexual acts and NOT in the Koran, which afaik states 'lewd acts between men should be punished' but doesn't say what those acts are and doesn't specify any particular punishment.
3) 80 countries have laws that criminalise sex between same-sex consenting adults http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1520086,00.html

 

[rghthrerightnow]

hi invisibleplanet was particularly interested in this:

2) AFAIK, "The Bible" ie. Tanach/Pentateuch forms the foundation for Mosaic & Halachic Law and this is where u find the death penalty for homosexual acts and NOT in the Koran, which afaik states 'lewd acts between men should be punished' but doesn't say what those acts are and doesn't specify any particular punishment.

i wondered it you could provide any link on this as i can't seem to find that info on the links you already provided.

 

[invisibleplanet]

yes, I've answered it here for you: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=3379145

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Very true. I have, in many posts, said that those who live their lives by the Old Testemant are just as vile as those communities who, collectively, act on these punishments in the name of Allah (ie Iranians, Palestinians, Saudis, etc). I believe that when "Hate Laws" are enforced the way the Government want to enforce them that the Querang and the Bible should be censored to get rid of the hate filled crapp that turns most of their readers into bitter, wife beating homophobes.

 

[rghthrerightnow]

while we are at it we should burn pornography
and gun mart
and copies of little red riding hood
and woman's own
and Sidney Du Broff's Shooting and Fishing Journal

in fact while we're at it lets burn every word ever written cos we're such piss-stoopid creatures we can't possibly entertain more than one thought per century

we should confiscate all keyboards that have tapped out bad words
if fact we really should nuke the whole Internet. the world, even

 

[HarrisonSlade]

while we are at it we should burn pornography
and gun mart
and copies of little red riding hood
and woman's own
and Sidney Du Broff's Shooting and Fishing Journal

in fact while we're at it lets burn every word ever written cos we're such piss-stoopid creatures we can't possibly entertain more than one thought per century

we should confiscate all keyboards that have tapped out bad words
if fact we really should nuke the whole Internet. the world, even

Nope, only the ideals sought after by mad extremists who use their books to justify beating up women, executing gays, amputating theives, etc.

 

[rghthrerightnow]

Nope, only the ideals sought after by mad extremists who use their books to justify beating up women, executing gays, amputating theives, etc.

so we destroy the ideals
does that mean the books or just widespread abitrary lobotomies?

 

[Pickman's model]

Very true. I have, in many posts, said that those who live their lives by the Old Testemant are just as vile as those communities who, collectively, act on these punishments in the name of Allah (ie Iranians, Palestinians, Saudis, etc). I believe that when "Hate Laws" are enforced the way the Government want to enforce them that the Querang and the Bible should be censored to get rid of the hate filled crapp that turns most of their readers into bitter, wife beating homophobes.

i think you have strayed beyond the bounds of sanity if you think that the majority of people who've read the koran and the bible are bitter, wife-beating homophobes. do you have the slightest evidence for that claim?

i've read a reasonable portion of the bible, as have many decent atheists i know, yet neither they nor i are bitter homophobick wife-beaters. similarly, out of xians i know, i can't name a single bitter homophobick wife-beater. and nor does anyone i now who's read the koran turned into a bitter gay-bashing wife-smacker. yr barking mad, harrisonslade.

 

[Ryazan]

A "decent" atheist.

You cock.

 

[cemertyone]

There are fears that members of the SWP and Respect are using this site to plot with Islamic Fundamentalists to tear down the fruits of Western Civilisation through their Private Messages system. I was wondering that, at a time of uncertainty and fear that such dangerous people should maybe have their PMs made public. Maybe it's a harsh decision, but who knows such measures could be the right way to ensure harmony and help promote tollerance. So, who's wit me?

Oh gosh this guy reminds me of all the worst aspects of my drunken alter ego.......he`s HORRIBLE

 

[HarrisonSlade]

i think you have strayed beyond the bounds of sanity if you think that the majority of people who've read the koran and the bible are bitter, wife-beating homophobes. do you have the slightest evidence for that claim?

i've read a reasonable portion of the bible, as have many decent atheists i know, yet neither they nor i are bitter homophobick wife-beaters. similarly, out of xians i know, i can't name a single bitter homophobick wife-beater. and nor does anyone i now who's read the koran turned into a bitter gay-bashing wife-smacker. yr barking mad, harrisonslade.

My point is that if "Hate Laws" are enforced as heavily as the Government wants them to be then it would be just as important to censor a book inciting the murder of gays and the oppression of women than it would be to stop Nazis from distributing their hateful bile. I think it's only fair, but to tell the honest truth, I believe that Islamics and Christians should be allowed to preach their fowl crapp but not expect any protection when someone uses this tactic on them.

 

[patjoseph]

There are fears that members of the SWP and Respect are using this site to plot with Islamic Fundamentalists to tear down the fruits of Western Civilisation through their Private Messages system. I was wondering that, at a time of uncertainty and fear that such dangerous people should maybe have their PMs made public. Maybe it's a harsh decision, but who knows such measures could be the right way to ensure harmony and help promote tollerance. So, who's wit me?

That made me laugh.........Prat

 

[patjoseph]

Very true. I have, in many posts, said that those who live their lives by the Old Testemant are just as vile as those communities who, collectively, act on these punishments in the name of Allah (ie Iranians, Palestinians, Saudis, etc). I believe that when "Hate Laws" are enforced the way the Government want to enforce them that the Querang and the Bible should be censored to get rid of the hate filled crapp that turns most of their readers into bitter, wife beating homophobes.

This made me angry....Prick

 

[james_walsh]

This made me angry....Prick

While i don't agree with HarrisonSlade. I think he was trying to make an amusing point, Why does it make you angry or him a prick?

 

[patjoseph]

It doesnt look amusing from here, it looks like the typical anti religeous crap.......makeing the bad minority to look like the majority

some readers of these scriptures are wife beating homophobes....but not most....But i have met wife beating homophobes that would use the bible as toilet paper....and that is why i am angry,and why he is a prick.

 

[invisibleplanet]

But i have met wife beating homophobes that would use the bible as toilet paper....and that is why i am angry....

Exactly. Harrison Slade's suggestion to censor religious texts is, in itself, extremist, and similar in attitude to the Book-burning 'Christians' of Southern States of USA. In this instance, it becomes difficult to tell which one is swine, and which is man (1984)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Brasseye, Jam, Hardcore pornography on the top shelves of newsagents, Big Brother with a woman wanking herself on a bottle. I think you will find that the Church is not as influential as your dream world has you believe it to be.

Okay, so you say that Chris Morris, gash mags and somebody "wanking" on telly prove that religion doesn't still have a grip on society?

Nobody claimed the grip was overt, but just whose morality and moral imperatives do you believe are represented most in the laws of this country?

It's certainly not something we've been allowed to decide for ourselves, is it?

Maybe you need to wake up from your dreamworld, Harrison my boy.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Exactly. Harrison Slade's suggestion to censor religious texts is, in itself, extremist, and similar in attitude to the Book-burning 'Christians' of Southern States of USA. In this instance, it becomes difficult to tell which one is swine, and which is man (1984)

Read my posts again. You will find that I was making a point against religious hate laws than I was Religious Fundamentalism. Religion angers me. The collective nature of religious loons swarming round one book to live their lives whilst passing mental or physical judgements on people they believe are evil pisses me off. I would always defend their rights to say these things, although I would also defend people who would violently turn against these ideal for I think that that is a right too.

 

[HarrisonSlade]

Okay, so you say that Chris Morris, gash mags and somebody "wanking" on telly prove that religion doesn't still have a grip on society?

Nobody claimed the grip was overt, but just whose morality and moral imperatives do you believe are represented most in the laws of this country?

It's certainly not something we've been allowed to decide for ourselves, is it?

Maybe you need to wake up from your dreamworld, Harrison my boy.

Although I despise collectivism, I feel that our secular laws benefit the people a lot more than Religious ones would (ie amputating limbs of thieves, executing women for cheating on their wife beating partners, executing gay folk for disrespecting their Allah)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Although I despise collectivism, I feel that our secular laws benefit the people a lot more than Religious ones would (ie amputating limbs of thieves, executing women for cheating on their wife beating partners, executing gay folk for disrespecting their Allah)

Our "secular" laws still allow a disproportionate input from the religions during their formation. How hard is it for that fact to permeate through your pickled noggin?