Herbert Read said:
I remember Arthur Scargill defending the mayday protests. But if he where running the country things might have been even worse for us.
Should Anarchists Defend Hierachical Political institutions.
- Thread starter Herbert Read
- Start date
I remember Arthur Scargill defending the mayday protests. But if he where running the country things might have been even worse for us.
I think we can show solidarity with members of electoral parties -- so if for instance a swappie shop steward got victimised for her union activities, I would support her. Even in the knowledge that her case would be ruthlessly exploited for political gain by her group. 
Although I suspect that's not the (kind of) case the OP was thinking of........
Although I suspect that's not the (kind of) case the OP was thinking of........
Donna Ferentes said:
see post 6 i did not write the eyes and teeth thing this is trickery from PC
james_walsh said:
prison and death
sevenstars
citizen army
I'm not an anarchist but if anarchists prefer to allow the state to silence opposition to its corporate pro-G8 agenda, rather than show solidarity to socialist MSP's, thats quite a sad state of affairs dont you think?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
no one i know noticed the ssp action - i certainly wouldn't have unless i'd have a temporary interest in reading the scottish press. and i don't think any anarchists are "allow[ing] the state to silence opposition to its corporate pro-g8 agenda". do you honestly believe that anarchists have a veto on publicity being accorded to the ssp?sevenstars said:
the ssp had their protest - then they got suspended. they knew the rules of the legislature they were protesting in - and you can guarantee that if some pro-hunting msp's had held a similar protest, they'd have been baying for blood.
sevenstars
citizen army
Well thats what supporters of the state, in the form of the Scottish Executive, have to say, but what about the anarchists?
the ssp had their protest - then they got suspended. they knew the rules of the legislature they were protesting in - and you can guarantee that if some pro-hunting msp's had held a similar protest, they'd have been baying for blood.[/QUOTE]
the ssp had their protest - then they got suspended. they knew the rules of the legislature they were protesting in - and you can guarantee that if some pro-hunting msp's had held a similar protest, they'd have been baying for blood.[/QUOTE]
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
It's down to the individual anarchist.
If I'm canvassing and get to talking to someone who says they're an anarchist (it does happen), I've come to realise there's only so much effort I should put in.
There's lots for anarchists to sympathise with in green politics, but if they aint going to vote then that's that wether I agree with them or not.
My time is then better spent trying to win over disilllusioned Labour voters or previous non-voters
If I'm canvassing and get to talking to someone who says they're an anarchist (it does happen), I've come to realise there's only so much effort I should put in.
There's lots for anarchists to sympathise with in green politics, but if they aint going to vote then that's that wether I agree with them or not.
My time is then better spent trying to win over disilllusioned Labour voters or previous non-voters
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
in two words: tough shit. their fuckwit protest went unnoticed most places outside holyrood - certainly pretty much everywhere outside scotland at the time, and - as i've pointed out earlier in the thread - this was being discussed and debated more than a fucking month ago in the scottish media.sevenstars said:
i don't recall a time that the ssp has ever shown solidarity with anarchists. and fuck knows they've had enough opportunity! now they want some £ because their msps were too fuckwitted to realise they might have their wages stopp'd if they had a demo in holyrood.
fuck 'em. none of them showed the fucking slightest inclination to support g8 prisoners.
sevenstars
citizen army
Pickman's, arguing that the SSP disobeyed the rules of a state institution and therefore deserve their punishment is surely a strange kind of anarchism?
The fact that the bourgeois media in England has not reported something that happened in Scotland isnt an argument for ignoring it. RW was just forwarding the most recent appeal for solidarity that the SSP put out last week, which is what makes it relevant now.
I cant recall, ever, Socialists in the SSP responding to the victimisation of anarchists by saying that 1) they knew what the punishment was for breaking the law so must take the consequences 2) It happened in another country and our own corporate media has ignored it, so its not relevant to us. Sorry for paraphrasing your arguments, but thats how they read to me.
I may have missed the thread appealing for solidarity with anarchists arrested at the G8, if you'd like to provide a link I would be quite happy as an SSP member to sign any such appeal. Having experienced the state operation at Gleneagles myself, bringing its anti-democtatic actions to a wider audience is as much in my interests as in yours. The state persecuting socialists for defending the right to demonstrate against the G8 is the same state that attacked the anarchists for protesting against the same G8.
When the state attacks those agitating for more rights/freedom for the rest of us, solidarity surely isnt conditional on the badges or political affiliations of those being attacked?
Solidarity is pretty basic to all working class movements for obvious reasons, its fair enough to criticise those who you feel dont show enough of it but to make a point of withholding it like this is petty and does you and your politics no credit at all
The fact that the bourgeois media in England has not reported something that happened in Scotland isnt an argument for ignoring it. RW was just forwarding the most recent appeal for solidarity that the SSP put out last week, which is what makes it relevant now.
I cant recall, ever, Socialists in the SSP responding to the victimisation of anarchists by saying that 1) they knew what the punishment was for breaking the law so must take the consequences 2) It happened in another country and our own corporate media has ignored it, so its not relevant to us. Sorry for paraphrasing your arguments, but thats how they read to me.
I may have missed the thread appealing for solidarity with anarchists arrested at the G8, if you'd like to provide a link I would be quite happy as an SSP member to sign any such appeal. Having experienced the state operation at Gleneagles myself, bringing its anti-democtatic actions to a wider audience is as much in my interests as in yours. The state persecuting socialists for defending the right to demonstrate against the G8 is the same state that attacked the anarchists for protesting against the same G8.
When the state attacks those agitating for more rights/freedom for the rest of us, solidarity surely isnt conditional on the badges or political affiliations of those being attacked?
Solidarity is pretty basic to all working class movements for obvious reasons, its fair enough to criticise those who you feel dont show enough of it but to make a point of withholding it like this is petty and does you and your politics no credit at all
Similar situation for the Zapatistas re: the potential disqualification of leftist candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador. They vocally opposed his exclusion but continually and forcefully maintained their public antipathy toward him as a member of the political class. They've come out fairly heavily against him in terms of the presidential elections upcoming.
FWIW I've no problem with anyone demonstrating in Holyrood, so I'm against people being punished for it.
FWIW I've no problem with anyone demonstrating in Holyrood, so I'm against people being punished for it.
LLETSA said:
Sorry LLETSA i forget your expression of politics is so new and dynamic, supporter of the IWCA (trumpet fanfare)
That would be electioneering and community work,wow what a new medium, i saw some of the community work beating up smack heads what a brave new world, the NF used to do that in the eighties.
I would just like to remind you from the other posts you put forth stateing that im closer to the trots than i think. As an IWCA supporter you are part of the trotskyite tradition.
SWP-RED ACTION-IWCA make the connection.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
wait up - i didn't realise that these ssp msps were demonstrating for more rights & freedoms for all. i thought they were trying to have a gesture demonstration about the g8, which isn't quite the same thing.sevenstars said:
i don't feel any loyalty to any group which enters parliament and swears an oath of allegiance to the crown - why should i? i've yet to hear about, much less go on, a demonstration or protest asserting the right of msps or mps to demonstrate within their own chamber. it all seems completely foolish, lackwitted and buffoonish to me... & not in a good way.
sevenstars said:
The SSP entered parliament, live by the sword die by the sword!
Tommy the poll tax 'grass' sheridan formerSSP and socialist ask for names after the poll tax riot, what amazing solidarity!
Herbert Read said:Sorry LLETSA i forget your expression of politics is so new and dynamic, supporter of the IWCA (trumpet fanfare)
That would be electioneering and community work,wow what a new medium, i saw some of the community work beating up smack heads what a brave new world, the NF used to do that in the eighties.
I would just like to remind you from the other posts you put forth stateing that im closer to the trots than i think. As an IWCA supporter you are part of the trotskyite tradition.
SWP-RED ACTION-IWCA make the connection.
What has this immature twaddle got to do with what I made the Bill and Ben comments about?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
what, the bill & ben comments you made which demonstrated yr usual mature consideration & analysis?LLETSA said:
LLETSA said:
Imature twoddle for immature twoddle.
Plus a few responses from other slurs directed against me
past caring
The Cathars were right
The Twighlight Zone?
Jackanory, more like.
Herbert Read said:
Jackanory, more like.
sevenstars
citizen army
no-ones asking for your 'loyalty' Pickmans, the appeal was for solidarity for those who were defending the right to protest against the G8 in Scotland. If your concept of solidarity only extends to those who protest the same way you do its pretty meaningless and clearly hasnt been based on any thought out experience of working class struggle.
As to Herberts reminder about Tommy Sheridan, his remarks after the poll tax riots where indefensible, and I haven't heard him or anyone elese defend them for some years now. He tends to be more associated now in Scotland with going to jail himself against warrant sales and nuclear weapons, i've never heard any anarchists in scotland tell him he deserved all he got for breaking the law, but then they seem like Sihhi and Sorry to know which side they are on.
You also might have missed it but there actually was a sizaeble protest movemnt in Scotland during the tory years for a scottish parliament; whether we agreed with that strategy or not it was a reality of Scottish politics. Exposing that that parliament felt unable to guarantee a protest demonstration against the G8 highlighted the limits of Scottish parliamentary democracy in the capitalist UK state. Simiarly the SSP MSP's have brought the monarchist oath to public attention by ridiculing it. But these are political issues I would expect to disagree with anarchists on
As to Herberts reminder about Tommy Sheridan, his remarks after the poll tax riots where indefensible, and I haven't heard him or anyone elese defend them for some years now. He tends to be more associated now in Scotland with going to jail himself against warrant sales and nuclear weapons, i've never heard any anarchists in scotland tell him he deserved all he got for breaking the law, but then they seem like Sihhi and Sorry to know which side they are on.
You also might have missed it but there actually was a sizaeble protest movemnt in Scotland during the tory years for a scottish parliament; whether we agreed with that strategy or not it was a reality of Scottish politics. Exposing that that parliament felt unable to guarantee a protest demonstration against the G8 highlighted the limits of Scottish parliamentary democracy in the capitalist UK state. Simiarly the SSP MSP's have brought the monarchist oath to public attention by ridiculing it. But these are political issues I would expect to disagree with anarchists on
LLETSA said:
While you are merely a keyboard warrior commenting on the twighlight zone.
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