Shell Drivers strike

[belboid]

Practically very single tube driver is looked after by the RMT... The same can hardly be said of cleaners and the TGWU. They may win victories against big employers of cleaning staff (in the city... the underground which also benefits from RMT clout), but they can do jack shit for the majority of cleaners who are hired informally, or work for employers who employ small quantities of staff/arent' bothered by their PR image.

So if I wasn't one of the lucky cleaners I can't see why I should be cheering for the tankers, if it means my (relatively fixed) spending power is likely to take a hit. It's just one sector of society getting richer, while the rest of us get poorer.

I do buy into your evangelisation argument a little bit. I'm not the union-hating demagogue that I'm portrayed as being sometimes. I do however believe that the justice of a strike hinges on whether potential society wide benefits outweigh the disruption and spending power hit to sectors which are often the least able to bear them. In some cases I've been convinced, in others not. I am fairly convinced that most anyone who isn't a trucker or in their family will see fuck all benefit from these strikes.

aah, so cleaners are a great example, but not all cleaners, only the ones you meant, but didn't specify. does look a tad as if you are shifting your argument. especially as most cleaners actually do work for major employers - the nhs, railways, big offices, etc etc.

As to the rest of your argument, it simply looks a bit like saying no one should ever strike to get better wages, after all, they're the lucky ones, who have unions who can fight for that kind of thing, and most people dont.

I'm sure you can see the simple errors in that theory.

 

[Wolveryeti]

aah, so cleaners are a great example, but not all cleaners, only the ones you meant, but didn't specify. does look a tad as if you are shifting your argument. especially as most cleaners actually do work for major employers - the nhs, railways, big offices, etc etc.

Digging out high profile union victories in the cleaning industry doesn't change the fact that there are net losers from the tanker dispute in cleaning from the (e.g. informal/illegal/temp workers) for whom unionisation is practically impossible or not worth the effort. This is really my point, that the debate is more complex than unions good management baaad.

Explain to me how unions could possibly help an agency employee on a temp contract to clean a small-to-medium office on the minimum wage get better conditions. Then I might understand what you're getting at.

As to the rest of your argument, it simply looks a bit like saying no one should ever strike to get better wages, after all, they're the lucky ones, who have unions who can fight for that kind of thing, and most people dont.

I'm sure you can see the simple errors in that theory.

This isn't really what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that I don't understand why some people cheerlead all union-won wage raises even when they make you worse off financially/inconvenience you.

 

[belboid]

Digging out high profile union victories in the cleaning industry doesn't change the fact that there are net losers from the tanker dispute in cleaning from the (e.g. informal/illegal/temp workers) for whom unionisation is practically impossible or not worth the effort. This is really my point, that the debate is more complex than unions good management baaad.

please re-write in english

Explain to me how unions could possibly help an agency employee on a temp contract to clean a small-to-medium office on the minimum wage get better conditions. Then I might understand what you're getting at.

so, the fact that your original example was completely wrong is irrelevant now. interesting. If the agency staff were unionised they could take their demands to their employers - the agency. Quite simple. They could start to demand a variety of improved terms and conditions then. You understand how unions work I assume?

This isn't really what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying that I don't understand why some people cheerlead all union-won wage raises even when they make you worse off financially/inconvenience you.

It is what you are saying in fact, even if it isn't what you meant to say. And we cheer them because, well, partly because we're not all selfish cunts.

 

[chegrimandi]

I do however believe that the justice of a strike hinges on whether potential society wide benefits outweigh the disruption and spending power hit to sectors which are often the least able to bear them. In some cases I've been convinced, in others not. I am fairly convinced that most anyone who isn't a trucker or in their family will see fuck all benefit from these strikes.

well then you just misunderstand what strikes are about. They are about people with a common interest working together collectively to improve their working conditions, strikers acknowledge the actual worth of their labour to the employer and withdraw it in order to negotiate better conditions for themselves. They are also about not allowing employers/management introduce draconian legislation/pay/conditions etc without consequence.

They are not about improving society as a whole. However obviously if people that see successful strikes get the inclination to go on strike themselves and do likewise - improve their working conditions etc - then there will be a net benefit of course to those people and society as a whole - possibly - but thats not the primary purpose of strike action.

 

[DRINK?]

These thick tw*ts get paid £32k... and they want more - for driving a f*cking lorry. They are as greedy as their overpaid bosses, and now they are going to make us all pay even more at the pump for their own quarrel that I couldn't give a flying f*ck about.

Train drivers earn 40k and truck drivers an average of 35k... there's something fundamentally wrong with the world. Hey kids, don't bother with an education, sit on your fat lazy arse (you ever seen a thin lorry driver) all day eating pies and doing a job that essentially involves driving in a straight line for long periods of time (in a couple of years robots will be able to do it), "reading" the Scum and generally being a sweaty, miserable tw*t. These jobs are piece of p*ss and they're being paid handsomely for doing them... they should shut the f*ck up.

Whenever I've been cut up by a truck driving badly, or more often held up while one of them takes six bastard miles to overtake another on a flat straight road, I've always comforted myself with the knowledge that they'll be all out of a job within fifteen years when the job's done by robots.

It seems you have to be a greedy c*nt to prosper these days, so f*ck them all. A teacher / nurse earns a fraction of that and yet these fat sh*ts who drive like braindead f*ckwits get paid a kings f*cking ransom. Get the f*cking freight back on the railways and canals and give these c*nts their P45s

Thatcher didn't go far enough...should have publicly hanged the union leaders, and parade Scargill's head on a spike around Westminster. If these sh*ts don't like their work and conditions, maybe they should have worked a bit harder at school, or perhaps, and here's a rather radical suggestion, look for another job?

 

[chegrimandi]

thanks for that utterly moronic post.

 

[belboid]

fuck off and die DRUNK? there's a good little moron

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

These thick tw*ts get paid £32k... and they want more - for driving a f*cking lorry. They are as greedy as their overpaid bosses, and now they are going to make us all pay even more at the pump for their own quarrel that I couldn't give a flying f*ck about.

Train drivers earn 40k and truck drivers an average of 35k... there's something fundamentally wrong with the world. Hey kids, don't bother with an education, sit on your fat lazy arse (you ever seen a thin lorry driver) all day eating pies and doing a job that essentially involves driving in a straight line for long periods of time (in a couple of years robots will be able to do it), "reading" the Scum and generally being a sweaty, miserable tw*t. These jobs are piece of p*ss and they're being paid handsomely for doing them... they should shut the f*ck up.

Whenever I've been cut up by a truck driving badly, or more often held up while one of them takes six bastard miles to overtake another on a flat straight road, I've always comforted myself with the knowledge that they'll be all out of a job within fifteen years when the job's done by robots.

It seems you have to be a greedy c*nt to prosper these days, so f*ck them all. A teacher / nurse earns a fraction of that and yet these fat sh*ts who drive like braindead f*ckwits get paid a kings f*cking ransom. Get the f*cking freight back on the railways and canals and give these c*nts their P45s

Thatcher didn't go far enough...should have publicly hanged the union leaders, and parade Scargill's head on a spike around Westminster. If these sh*ts don't like their work and conditions, maybe they should have worked a bit harder at school, or perhaps, and here's a rather radical suggestion, look for another job?

in this bilious ripost is there anything approaching a point other than demonstrating what a consumate arse some people can be?

 

[DRINK?]

:d:d:d

 

[articul8]

Peasants are, in relation to their economic situation, small businessmen

Peasants are objectively kulaks - Stalin couldn't have put it any better himself

 

[Das Uberdog]

To hell with what Marx thinks. Why can't you argue using the English language, in which the common definition of a working class person is one who labours physically for a wage?

Because Marx provided the only useful definition of class in terms of a scientific analysis of history and of social change. In practice there is overlap, and not all action is intertwined with class interest - but it's more than just a coincidence that history has progressed in the dialectical form it has done - and Marx analysis of society holds as true in today's world than ever.

Your definition of working class ironically includes self-made builders and plumbers raking in a small fortune whilst excluding shoddily paid office workers on 12 hour days working for agencies and call-centres. It's not my definition of class which needs revamping. Peasants live on the market - if they don't, and instead they live on a wage, then I wouldn't class them as peasants, I'd class them as agricultural labourers. Fundamentally a peasant is defined and distinguished from a conventional 'worker' by the fact they produce their own wealth which they consume directly, and flog the excess on the market for profit. A worker on a wage does no such thing.

go back to school and learn about the use of language then dear boy

If this is a semantic dispute then I'm happy to accept that you didn't intend to mean unskilled workers could never gain significant union clout. Still - can't you accept that it's quite easy for a third party to take that from what you'd written?

Thatcher didn't go far enough

Troll?

 

[belboid]

If this is a semantic dispute then I'm happy to accept that you didn't intend to mean unskilled workers could never gain significant union clout. Still - can't you accept that it's quite easy for a third party to take that from what you'd written?

I can indeed accept that. But I'll expect your eternal gratitude in return

 

[Das Uberdog]

Not worth it...

 

[Wolveryeti]

please re-write in english

The cheek, lol Please learn English??? Please insert brain???

so, the fact that your original example was completely wrong is irrelevant now. interesting. If the agency staff were unionised they could take their demands to their employers - the agency. Quite simple. They could start to demand a variety of improved terms and conditions then. You understand how unions work I assume?

My original example is imperfect, maybe, but not wrong. The fact that you are too intellectually lazy to engage with the points I'm making is your problem, not mine.

It is what you are saying in fact, even if it isn't what you meant to say. And we cheer them because, well, partly because we're not all selfish cunts.

Your ridiculously cack-handed attempts to paraphrase me incorrectly aren't helping your case either.

You muppet.

 

[Wolveryeti]

well then you just misunderstand what strikes are about.

I understand very well what strikes are about. The issue is in the value of worker solidarity, and whether people should support other striking workers on principle even if it makes them worse off.

I think some thought about wider societal effects is warranted when forming a point of view on that.

 

[belboid]

oh dear, 'Dapper' can't defend himself, or admit his assertions were wrong.

 

[chegrimandi]

well done to the tanker drivers for their victory in the pay dispute.

 

[Fullyplumped]

well done to the tanker drivers for their victory in the pay dispute.

Agreed.

However did they manage it? There seems to have been no involvement of any kind by members of Trotskyist sects, parties, groupuscules or tendencies! Just the Union.

Perhaps someone from one of those will be along in due course to tell them where they went wrong and how the Union sold them out. It's traditional, isn't it?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Three cheers for the tanker drivers, whose downright insulting wage of £35,000 a year has now gone up by many times the value of inflation. Still not approaching the king's ransom they deserve, but at least it's putting some extra breathing space between them and all those fucking useless nurses, teachers and other sanctimonious do-gooders. Some might say these drivers were being utter cunts causing so much disruption to ordinary folk when they're getting paid so much more than people doing jobs far more difficult and important than driving a big lorry all day long, but I say good luck to them. I mean, those people who haven't been able to get to work; or have had to queue for hours to get fuel; or who have been the victim of profiteering price hikes at a time when fuel is already cripplingly expensive; those people are all just wankers really aren't they?

 

[Bakunin]

Agreed.

However did they manage it? There seems to have been no involvement of any kind by members of Trotskyist sects, parties, groupuscules or tendencies! Just the Union.

Perhaps someone from one of those will be along in due course to tell them where they went wrong and how the Union sold them out. It's traditional, isn't it?

I'd have thought the apparent absence of any of the 57 varieties of cack-handed papersellers could only be a good thing, personally.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Three cheers for the tanker drivers, whose downright insulting wage of £35,000 a year has now gone up by many times the value of inflation. Still not approaching the king's ransom they deserve, but at least it's putting some extra breathing space between them and all those fucking useless nurses, teachers and other sanctimonious do-gooders. Some might say these drivers were being utter cunts causing so much disruption to ordinary folk when they're getting paid so much more than people doing jobs far more difficult and important than driving a big lorry all day long, but I say good luck to them. I mean, those people who haven't been able to get to work; or have had to queue for hours to get fuel; or who have been the victim of profiteering price hikes at a time when fuel is already cripplingly expensive; those people are all just wankers really aren't they?

No, I entirely disagree. How dare they conduct industrial action! They should be bloody grateful they don't all get fired, there'd be plenty of people who'd do that job. Think of all the nurses who earn nothing like that - do they go on strike? What would this country be like if people just went on strike whenever they wanted something? Imagine all the hearses without fuel.

Maggie would have known what to do with them.

 

[SpookyFrank]

No, I entirely disagree. How dare they conduct industrial action! They should be bloody grateful they don't all get fired, there'd be plenty of people who'd do that job. Think of all the nurses who earn nothing like that - do they go on strike? What would this country be like if people just went on strike whenever they wanted something? Imagine all the hearses without fuel.

Maggie would have known what to do with them.

I'm all in favour of any industrial action by pretty much anyone bar the police, but there are lots of people in this country more in need of solidarity, public support and strong unions than a few hundred lorry drivers on £35,000 a year. In my part of the world there have been entire towns without petrol in the past few days; I wouldn't be surprised if loss of earnings and the cost of price increases resulting directly from this strike added up to a lot more than the total financial gain achieved by the industrial action. That doesn't seem like a victory for the workers to me.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I'm all in favour of any industrial action by pretty much anyone bar the police, but there are lots of people in this country more in need of solidarity, public support and strong unions than a few hundred lorry drivers on £35,000 a year.

Would denying solidarity to and crippling the unions of the lorry drivers help get these people what they need?

(I don't think they've really had that much public support tbh, though there's not been the same press savaging of them that's been present for, say, tube drivers.)

 

[elbows]

For those that think its just 'driving a big lorry' I would guess there is a premium attached because they are driving something that could explode?

I assume they got the rise because their action was effective, and because their demands were not too hard to meet - there arent that many of them (unlike teachers, nurses etc) and the industry is not short of cash.

 

[Das Uberdog]

It's not the drivers or the other workers who're wankers - Shell are wankers. Get your priorities sorted.

 

[rover07]

Even the new wages amounts to only £20 per hour. Not a lot for rotating shift work including weekends.

 

[shagnasty]

I suppose the fact that they have a more stronger posisition as against nurses etc who really have to think hard against strike action and really can't force their action to far as to hurt their patients.a few people without fuel even though it will cost then money they can't afford .is not the same as a person in an hospital bed sadly

 

[belboid]

In my part of the world there have been entire towns without petrol in the past few days

why do I suspect this is a total fib? I'd have thought the right-wing press would have lapped such a situation up, but no.......

One specific petrol companies stations were affected, and not even all of them, your 'facts' are somewhat unbelievable, which makes the rest of your comment even more dubious

 

[belboid]

Heard a bit on the news last night about the Unison health spokesperson saying that following the 'magnificent' truck drivers victory, they would be pressing harder to ensure that their members got a decent pay rise as well, and that the truck drivers dispute showed the way to fight.

Which is almost precisely what some of us were saying we hoped would happen, and another reason why this victory will benefit large n umbers of workers

 

[chegrimandi]

Three cheers for the tanker drivers, whose downright insulting wage of £35,000 a year has now gone up by many times the value of inflation. Still not approaching the king's ransom they deserve, but at least it's putting some extra breathing space between them and all those fucking useless nurses, teachers and other sanctimonious do-gooders. Some might say these drivers were being utter cunts causing so much disruption to ordinary folk when they're getting paid so much more than people doing jobs far more difficult and important than driving a big lorry all day long, but I say good luck to them. I mean, those people who haven't been able to get to work; or have had to queue for hours to get fuel; or who have been the victim of profiteering price hikes at a time when fuel is already cripplingly expensive; those people are all just wankers really aren't they?

it is not the lorry drivers fault other people don't get paid well for their jobs...they went on strike to achieve better conditions for themselves. People in other industries in this country are capable of doing the same. The truck drivers have shown how well it can work.