Sheffield: Row over "No To IDF No To Hamas" Placard (repost)

[Spion]

Were the milis for Troops out?

They weren't. My memory was correct. Which explains why I never saw any on 'Troops out' marches

"Militant criticised its perspective for military action as a means of driving the British army out of Northern Ireland. It pointed out that British imperialism, unlike in 1920 at the time of partition, would have liked to withdraw from Northern Ireland.

However, to have done so under conditions then existing would almost certainly have resulted in a sectarian civil war."

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/militant/

 

[treelover]

Quite. I really wonder how manay leftist organisaition actually support the idea of socialism in the Middle East anymore - as doing so would put them at direct odds with the Islamists.

I wonder if a "socialism for the middle east" placard would be similarly ripped down?

Much of the SWP/STWC policy in relation to I/P was thrashed out at the Cairo Conference, heavily dominated by factions close to the Islamist 'Muslim Brotherhood'.

 

[tangentlama]

What is 'the Cairo Conference' ?

 

[Spion]

What is 'the Cairo Conference' ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Anti-war_Conference

 

[Spion]

Much of the SWP/STWC policy in relation to I/P was thrashed out at the Cairo Conference, heavily dominated by factions close to the Islamist 'Muslim Brotherhood'.

"The [2007] conference was organised by Al-Karama (Dignity), Al-Ishtirakyin Al-Sawryin (Socialist Revolutionary Party), Al-Ikhwan Al-Muslimin (Muslim Brotherhood) and Al-'Amal (Labour), and was held at the Egyptian Press Syndicate, with close to 600 participants and observers from around the world, including a delegation of 80 South Koreans and 20 Canadians.[3] The Muslim Brotherhood reported there were activists present from Palestine (including Hamas members), Iraq, Lebanon, Venezuela, Turkey, Greece, Nigeria, Britain, Tunisia, Sudan, France and Iran.[4] Speakers included Ali Fayed of Hizbullah[5], Sadala Mazraani of the Lebanese Communist Party[3], James Clark of the Canadian Peace Alliance[3], Feroze Mithiborwala of the Muslim Intellectual Forum of India[6], John Rees of the Socialist Workers Party (UK)[7] and Rose Gentle (the mother of Gordon Gentle, a British soldier killed while serving in Iraq, and a leading figure in Military Families Against the War)."

Why do you identify the sinister sounding 'factions close to' etc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you really are listening to the little BNP voice in your head and attempting a bigotted smear aren't you?

And SWP positions on I/P were held long before any of those conferences took place. You really are a dimwit, aren't you?

 

[tangentlama]

Sorry. That's bullshit that the SWP 'thrashed out' their position to I-P conflict in 2002. Their position was consolidated long before 2002. You only have to read Yg'al Gluckstein (aka Tony Cliff) going back years to know that there's very little other than restatement and update to reflect latest developments in the 2002 Cairo Conference.

I'm not SWP lover, but I'm familiar with Gluckstein/Cliff's writings.

In 1944 we lived near Tel Aviv market. One morning my wife saw a young man go around talking to all the women selling produce. Some he left alone, but others had paraffin poured on the vegetables and their eggs smashed. My wife, who had just come from South Africa, couldn’t believe it. “What's going on?” she asked.

It was simple. The man checked if the produce was Hebrew or Arab, and destroyed Arab produce. Now, this behaviour was still on a small scale and some Zionists were still talking like left wingers. Zionist publishers printed Lenin and Trotsky, for example.

But the antagonism to the Arabs remained central. No Arab ever entered the kibbutz movement, the so called “socialist” collective farms. The majority of Jewish-owned land belonged to the Jewish National Fund, whose constitution forbade Arab tenants. This meant in whole areas the original Arab populations were driven out.
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/cliff/isrviol.htm

Undelying every conversation you engage in about Israel-Palestine is your boring-boring-boring and irrelevant attacks on SWP. You NEVER have anything of worth to say, you just use the IP conflict to attack the SWP but each time come out looking like a repetitive obsessive fool who will use any issue, national or international, to launch another of your anti-SWP rants

 

[nino_savatte]

Much of the SWP/STWC policy in relation to I/P was thrashed out at the Cairo Conference, heavily dominated by factions close to the Islamist 'Muslim Brotherhood'.

Another propaganda gem from Harry's Place?

 

[belboid]

shock horror, but there's a load of shit on this thread.

It's amusing that everyone immediately shouts down 'swappies' for 'censoring' a rival political view. Fact is, they didnt, they stood around going 'ooh, should we do something?'. It was others, some white lefties, some muslim lefties, having a go at them. The SWP stood there and looked disapproving.

Also worth a mention that the AWL scabs had showed up the week before with the same placards, and were asked, by the PSC, not to bring them again. For the obvious reason that the placards do, to anyone passing by, state an equivalence between the IDF and hamas. A view only morons and rabid zionists take at the moment, with a death rate of 100-1. They were told that of course they were welcome on the demo, and it was no problem to write whatevfer shite they wanted in their leaflets, but that that placard was not going to be allowed. And it wasnt, as Musheir went over and tore it iup.

The fact is , the pathetic children of the AWL just wanted to cause a row - notably with the SWP - so they could write about 'islamo-fascist tyranny' in their rag. But they just skulked off like the turds they are.

 

[butchersapron]

Leave off - Bowler was as good as cheering.

 

[butchersapron]

...and it doesn't matter if the PCS had asked them not to turn up with the placard the week before. They have no right to do so.

 

[belboid]

PSC called demo, they can make any request they like. And that request can be ignored, but if it is, they are bound to know what the likely consequences are. Thankfully, it was a brief kerfuffle that didn't really distract from the demo (much as the AWL would have like it too), and is of no consequence. Tbh, cant see why there is any need for a thread on it, just gives the arses more publicity.

 

[kyser_soze]

to most bystanders this could only be seen as saying that these two organisations are equally part of the problem.

I think most bystanders would probably see it as someone saying 'NO' to the two groups of people who keep firing weapons at civilians.

Yes, socialists support the destruction of Israel

Wow, that's a huge volte-face since the 1970s, no?

 

[bouncer_the_dog]

I still don't understand what the problem with the placard is?

I find it odd that, at a public protest, people were squabbling over who stood where with what placard.

 

[treelover]

I think most bystanders would probably see it as someone saying 'NO' to the two groups of people who keep firing weapons at civilians.

exactly, people who have given out leaflets to the public on these demos have reported the general feeling is, that all killing of civilians should stop.

 

[butchersapron]

they are bound to know what the likely consequences are.

Come on b. I've no time for the AWL and their politics, but this physical censorship is not on - and the messge is clear about what politics are exculsively allowed in local support groups. If it is, if this is acceptable let's see huge fights next london demo when certain placards are challenged by stewards and people are blocked off the march. It's not going to happen is it? Don't let local hates block the bigger pic here.

 

[belboid]

I think most bystanders would probably see it as someone saying 'NO' to the two groups of people who keep firing weapons at civilians.

so you agree that they are equating the two groups? Which is a pretty untenable position considering the realities of the last three weeks, not to mention the preceding nine years.

 

[frogwoman]

fools. this is exactly the sort of thing that the zionists will jump on and say "look they're all evil hamas supporting terrorists blah blah blah blah"

we know otherwise but what sort of image is that going to convey to the general public who don't know much about the situation beyond what they read in the media?

 

[treelover]

I still don't understand what the problem with the placard is?

I find it odd that, at a public protest, people were squabbling over who stood where with what placard.

Sadly, there is a growing level of intolerance at some of these protests, which is begging to put people off, a bad thing

 

[butchersapron]

so you agree that they are equating the two groups? Which is a pretty untenable position considering the realities of the last three weeks, not to mention the preceding nine years.

Don't retreat into udo font size arguments. They only mean equivalence in the minds of worked up trots. Everyone else reads it as a pox on both houses.

It's also possible to disgree with two positions without equating them, no matter what font size.

 

[frogwoman]

if placards like that are banned (and i agree, the message is bollocks and fuck the AWL and their "lefist" politics) are we going to see all the allahu akbar type religious chants like the one at the demo i was at on new years eve banned as well, given their completely counterproductive message making out that this is somehow a religiously exclusive thing to muslims?

i doubt it

 

[belboid]

Come on b. I've no time for the AWL and their politics, but this physical censorship is not on - and the messge is clear about what politics are exculsively allowed in local support groups. If it is, if this is acceptable let's see huge fights next london demo when certain placards are challenged by stewards and people are blocked off the march. It's not going to happen is it? Don't let local hates block the bigger pic here.

There's was the only placard removed, but there was also a call at the beginning of the demo not to use 'non-approved' slogans. That was clearly an attempt to stop any looney islamic fundies shouting any anti-jewish stuff, or equating israel with jews. No one objected to that (tho I bet it pissed the AWL off, they were dying for their to be some dodgy comments they could jump on), so what's the difference? It was a demonstration opposing the Israeli attacks, and murder of a thousand people. Having a placard there effectively saying 'they deserved it' was a pathetically childish provocation.

The whole thing lasted a couple of minutes, it was a nothing really.

 

[kyser_soze]

so you agree that they are equating the two groups? Which is a pretty untenable position considering the realities of the last three weeks, not to mention the preceding nine years.

No. You see, this is where the left starts to part company with the public.

Average Joe sees there are two protagonists, one called 'IDF' one called 'Hamas' who are both happy to lob missiles are civilians. Average Joe then concludes that by removing IDF and Hamas, the two groups who are killing civvies will no longer be able to do so.

See, they aren't equating on any other level other than 'They both kill civilians, they should both be stopped'.

Altho it is nicely instructive when those on this board who rant about FoS and protest issues, about how NuLab are a dangerous authoritarian govt, react to this incident.

 

[belboid]

Sadly, there is a growing level of intolerance at some of these protests, which is begging to put people off, a bad thing

such as? Any actual evidence for your assertion? Or is it just another treelover load of shite. Just stay home of you dont support the demos

 

[frogwoman]

damn you butchers, why am i agreeing with you so much recently?

 

[butchersapron]

There's was the only placard removed, but there was also a call at the beginning of the demo not to use 'non-approved' slogans. That was clearly an attempt to stop any looney islamic fundies shouting any anti-jewish stuff, or equating israel with jews. No one objected to that (tho I bet it pissed the AWL off, they were dying for their to be some dodgy comments they could jump on), so what's the difference? It was a demonstration opposing the Israeli attacks, and murder of a thousand people. Having a placard there effectively saying 'they deserved it' was a pathetically childish provocation.

The whole thing lasted a couple of minutes, it was a nothing really.

The difference is that a placard saying no to the IDF no to hamas is not the same as an anti-semitic placard, whether you agree with it or not. On a simple tactical level, the PCS show what great leaders in waiting they are.

 

[e19896]

shock horror, but there's a load of shit on this thread.

It's amusing that everyone immediately shouts down 'swappies' for 'censoring' a rival political view. Fact is, they didnt, they stood around going 'ooh, should we do something?'. It was others, some white lefties, some muslim lefties, having a go at them. The SWP stood there and looked disapproving.

Also worth a mention that the AWL scabs had showed up the week before with the same placards, and were asked, by the PSC, not to bring them again. For the obvious reason that the placards do, to anyone passing by, state an equivalence between the IDF and hamas. A view only morons and rabid zionists take at the moment, with a death rate of 100-1. They were told that of course they were welcome on the demo, and it was no problem to write whatevfer shite they wanted in their leaflets, but that that placard was not going to be allowed. And it wasnt, as Musheir went over and tore it iup.

The fact is , the pathetic children of the AWL just wanted to cause a row - notably with the SWP - so they could write about 'islamo-fascist tyranny' in their rag. But they just skulked off like the turds they are.

What a wanker you are turning out to be, i did not see you there agreed
the pathetic children of the AWL just wanted to cause a row - notably with the SWP, look at the images

I do not agree with The AWL or any blatant form nationalism as well you know, so why the fuck did they stand around? because as well you know they provoked Musheir into his crass action and agreed with it..

Indeed your partner and her comrades was all so stood around, could not a conversation be had?

You know if i had seen an hint or the start of this i would have steped in and stoped the crass action of Musheir and i have spoken to him since about what happend, he is a long term friend and brother and The SWP and other scum are simply using his anger and greaf for the own political gain.

As well you know this happens, you have see this in action, is not a shame that The Left in such times come out with such blatant nationalism, but rightly condem The Far Right for theirs, what grand hypocrites you lot are..

 

[Taxamo Welf]

i'm backing belboid on this.

Fair play to you.

ETA: well, not being there and not being massively concerned with this all, i'm most convinced by his posts.

 

[butchersapron]

damn you butchers, why am i agreeing with you so much recently?

Because, once again, i'm the only person keeping their cool

 

[frogwoman]

if you ask me this was completely counterproductive especially considering the large amount of political islamists I've seen at the local demos ... you should see the amount of hostile looks we got from passers by when they were yelling "allahu akbar" etc compared to when the chants were about palestine itself ...

how fucking stupid. the zionists are just waiting for a chance to jump on incidents like this and portray all these protests as "jew hating" and in so doing scare away a lot of people who would otherwise be sympathetic

they're already doing a good enough job of smearing their enemies as it is ... don't hand them an open goal

ffs

 

[butchersapron]

i'm backing belboid on this.

Fair play to you.

revo revival