Sharia in the UK
- Thread starter slaar
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chilango said:
Hence you didn't live "under Shari'a Law" at all since you are not even a Muslim. Telling that you were teaching English to Muslims "for some time" isn't answering my question how much the posters here actually know about "Shari'a Law". Comes to this that the current situation in the Sudan isn't exactly representative for "Islam".
Where did these people study and what was their authority/function, which Madhab did they follow and apply in their cases? I don't follow the judicial processus in the Sudan but from what I hear it it looks as if many who declare themselves "scholar" should urgently be educated in what Islam and Islamic Law entails.
In Sufism it depends what you look at or are interested in.
salaam.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Aldebaran said:
Which is (mostly) all fair enough.
However, i did live under Sharia law, as do (did?) all non Muslims in Sudan. One of the reasons behind the civil wars there I guess. The state imposed sharia upon all residents of Sudan. I think this is now one the points being discussed in the peace agreement with the SPLA.
It is also a fair comment that the Sudanese case is not representative of Islam as a whole - but there are people who share this interpretation of Islam in Britain and elsewhere, and I guess they would be amongst the most vocal proponents of the introduction of Islamic law (or a version thereof) in places like Britain.
My point was to illustrate that I do have some experience of sharia law - both through discussions of the nature of justice, rights etc. with those responsible for applying it, and through being forced to live according to it. I don´t claim to be any kind of expert but do have experince of it in everyday life - enough I beleive to make comment upon it if i choose.
chilango said:
Surely every system of thought can be gutted and harnessed to the interests of an elite - if some more easily than others. Hence in history we've seen Stalin 'abolishing the state by strengthening the state', anarchist government ministers in Spain and so on.
Sharia too will have liberal 'no compulsion in matters of religion' etc versions, and authoriarian ones. I think the important thing is whther ordinary people are organised and able to defend and fight for their interests. When they are we get 'better' periods of history, when they're not we get worse situations.
Binkie said:
I agree with the word "study". I have to disagree with the word "understand" and I have a lot of experience with those who studied and study Islam from a Western point of view. To be able to understand how they came/come to their views, I went to study at European universities when I had my doctorate in Islamic studies at an Islamic university.
It can be the case and it is very often the case, especially when it comes to Islamic history and theology. Just like it is the case in Christianity (and other religions) as well. Nevertheless, just like there are Christian historians and theologians able to study and explain from an academic, hence objective and critical point of view, there are (and always were) Muslim academics who do the same.
salaam.
A
You said it: "supposed".
There is in fact no such thing as "pure" Islamic Law just like there is no single recognized authority in (sunni) Islam.
In that aspect (authority) the situation in Shia Islam is different, yet there it is even more a question of (living) interpretation then where this is in any case always possible in sunni Islam.
The aim of Shari'a and hence the way it is approached and applied differs largely from what we know about Western jurisdiction, which only adds to the confusion.
For example: You can't imagine in any "Western" system that both lawyer and judge can be combined in the same person, can you.
salaam.
chilango said:
You said it: "supposed".
There is in fact no such thing as "pure" Islamic Law just like there is no single recognized authority in (sunni) Islam.
In that aspect (authority) the situation in Shia Islam is different, yet there it is even more a question of (living) interpretation then where this is in any case always possible in sunni Islam.
The aim of Shari'a and hence the way it is approached and applied differs largely from what we know about Western jurisdiction, which only adds to the confusion.
For example: You can't imagine in any "Western" system that both lawyer and judge can be combined in the same person, can you.
salaam.
Binkie said:
Yes. My father was Middle Eastern, Arab, Muslim. That is where I was born, where my main residence and my citizenship is . My mother however was European and practicing Catholic. I had lively discussions with her priest when I was a child.
In my first attempts to establish some academic reputation (needless to say it is deemed badly excentric in some circles) I wrote a thesis on the textual history of Al Qur'an and used for that, together with the Muslims sources, quite a few of the established, reputed Western (Blachère and Nöldeke to begin with). Of course a subject not that many Islamic scholars are prepared to tackle in these days of Wahhabi sectarian lunaticism heading for world domination of the Islamic spectrum and the (most vocal) rethoric.
? I don't know how to read this. Is that expressing doubts that any Muslim could be "objective" even when he is an academic? If so, why do you think that?
salaam.
Boogie Boy
Rockin' on the 1210s
Aldebaran said:Yes. My father was Middle Eastern, Arab, Muslim. That is where I was born, where my main residence and my citizenship is . My mother however was European and practicing Catholic. I had lively discussions with her priest when I was a child.
In my first attempts to establish some academic reputation (needless to say it is deemed badly excentric in some circles) I wrote a thesis on the textual history of Al Qur'an and used for that, together with the Muslims sources, quite a few of the established, reputed Western (Blachère and Nöldeke to begin with). Of course a subject not that many Islamic scholars are prepared to tackle in these days of Wahhabi sectarian lunaticism heading for world domination of the Islamic spectrum and the (most vocal) rethoric.
? I don't know how to read this. Is that expressing doubts that any Muslim could be "objective" even when he is an academic? If so, why do you think that?
salaam.
I'm interested in what conclusions you may have reached relating to the textual history of the Qur'an? And did you find your analysis had any effect on your faith (assuming that you practice Islam)? I would also welcome your thoughts regarding John Wansborough?
BB
Boogie Boy said:I'm interested in what conclusions you may have reached relating to the textual history of the Qur'an? And did you find your analysis had any effect on your faith (assuming that you practice Islam)? I would also welcome your thoughts regarding John Wansborough?
BB
I think that would better be done in an other thread.
Wansbrough... Interesting, challenging work but he failed to come up with a single convincing proof for his assertions. No miracle he has little support and all the rest is ready to criticize
And no, it doesn't affect my faith.
salaam.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Well the bits most westerners know about Sharia is the taleban and others stoning and excuting people for violating their version of islamic law .
Its funny how when ever the faithful get power its allways ,Time to
torture and excute their opponents not forgive them .
Its funny how when ever the faithful get power its allways ,Time to
torture and excute their opponents not forgive them .
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Binkie said:
I disagree with you, there's no historical or factual evidence to suggest this, since Islam has always been a religion which traditionally encourages exploration and experimentation in all of the scientitific disciplines.
Where would science be without algebra, optical lenses, precision-made scientificic instruments such as sextants, and star-maps? Compare Islam's open acceptance and encouragement to study, with Christianity's traditional hostility to scientific progress, elititist education system, and let's not forget Christianity's execution of progressive scientific thinkers through the ages. None of these doctrinal conflicts between science and G-d seem to exist in Islam.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tangentlama said:
Indeed, Xtianity gave us the so-called Dark Age. Science was seen as the wrongful questioning of God; and superstition ruled cultural and intellectual life. Of course it wasn't just scientists who were executed, those groups of Xtians like the Bogomils and Albigensians were branded as heretics because they had a different perspective on the faith.
Boogie Boy
Rockin' on the 1210s
Aldebaran said:I think that would better be done in an other thread.
Wansbrough... Interesting, challenging work but he failed to come up with a single convincing proof for his assertions. No miracle he has little support and all the rest is ready to criticize
And no, it doesn't affect my faith.
salaam.
Which doesn't really answer my question. What did you find 'interesting' and 'challenging' about Wansborough's work, and what 'proof' and what 'assertion' do you feel he was trying to make?
I'm interested in this as you then state that 'he has little support' - which naturally leads to the question 'from whom?'. Within or outside the Islamic community? Presumably your view also extends to Patricia Crone?
BB
I think that's too general, though I would agree that certain christian institutions have been too attached to their own worldly power and hence opposed those that were considered a threat to it. I can't think of anything in the bible which discourages finding out about the world in which we live.tangentlama said:
Boogie Boy said:
Like I said: If you want to discuss the textual history of Al Qur'an you can make a thread.
I'm not going to waste my time in answering such questions in a non-related thread.
English is not among the languages I studied, I am also dyslexic, and hence it asks a lot more time then you can imagine for me to construct a decent post.
Let alone that I want to explain and discuss complex issues as the textual history of a work like Al Qur'an, only to have all that buried somewhere in a thread that has nothing to do with it at all.
salaam.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Weren't you a Swappie?mutley said:
Idris2002
Stay Alive in '25
Re: science in Islam. One of hte people who taught me everything I know was a Muslim from Darfur. . .his big thing was medical anthropology, and he often told me about how in the middle ages, Islamic medicine was more advanced than that of Europe. The reason why Europe overtook the Muslim world in medical science after the Renaissance was because the (as I remember what was taught to me) Islam (or certain interpretations of it?) banned dissection.
Thing is - Christianity used to ban dissection too. In UK in the past it was believed that if your body had been cut up you wouldn't be resurrected at the last judgement. That's why medical researchers had to resort to body snatching to get their specimens.
What I'd conclude from that is that it's not religion itself which produces (or does not produce) conditions suitable for the rise of science - it's the wider social context of which religion and science are both a part.
Thing is - Christianity used to ban dissection too. In UK in the past it was believed that if your body had been cut up you wouldn't be resurrected at the last judgement. That's why medical researchers had to resort to body snatching to get their specimens.
What I'd conclude from that is that it's not religion itself which produces (or does not produce) conditions suitable for the rise of science - it's the wider social context of which religion and science are both a part.
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