Sharia in the UK

[ViolentPanda]

Didn't we go through having Church law once in this country instead? I know it was a while ago, but I suspect we've got some pretty good arguments as to why it was a Bad Thing...

I believe some of that "church law" is still on the statute books because of the nature of our legal system.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I believe some of that "church law" is still on the statute books because of the nature of our legal system.

Yes it is and there are quite a few barristers who specialise in Eccleisiastical Law.

It applies only -- IIRC -- to the conduct of vicars and church government.

 

[mutley]

Well, leaving aside the arguments on the other thread about sample size and whom the original person questioned passed ICM's interviewers along to, it's a piece of piss to find out who and who isn't Muslim - there are several national marketing surveys which ask about religion (TGI being the most well known) so while these are self-entitled Muslims. What do you mean by 'visible clusters' as well?

And outside of the bit about Sharia (which was a biased question), the survey showed that Muslim's in the UK are pretty much of the same mind as non-Muslims about most political issues.

Finding out yes. But where will you find the muslims - that's the point.

For a survey to be valid, you have to go through a certain method.

First you need to esablish what is the frame which is the people or things you're surveying. In this case the frame is 'all muslims in Britain'.

Then, for the survey to be valid, you need to have a method of sampling that means every member of the frame has an equal chance of being surveyed, or if some don't, the bias has no effect on what you're measuring.

In this case, you need a survey which means that the muslim family who run a takeaway in Lyme regis have the same chance of being surveyed as Mr Miah from 1 the high street, Bradford.

To do that you need a list, with all the uk's muslims, to select your 400 from randomly. Is there such a list? How many muslims live scattered the length and bredth of the uk, living relatively integrated lives? If they don't figure in the sample, then it's biased against what could possibly be a liberal wing of opinion.

By clusters, I mean that you could do the survey by finding (say) 100 Muslims each in Birmingham, east London, bradford and Burnley. That would NOT be a random sample of the frame, but a sample of Muslims who live in those innercity areas, with far more of their own community around them. Or you could do it outside Mosques - again not all Muslims go to mosque.

 

[slaar]

No, surely you just select randomly from people who self-identify as "muslim" on the census. Isn't that standard practice?

 

[mutley]

No, surely you just select randomly from people who self-identify as "muslim" on the census. Isn't that standard practice?

That's a lot of work going through the census to identify where they are, or are you going to only go through the census for people who live in areas where you reckon Muslims are? In which case you've biased the survey towards Muslims who live in city communities. Remember, if you really want a survey of all muslims in the uk, you can't just start with Bradford.

How many live in small towns? You could, I suppose, use the overall poplulation data to work out where muslims live ie what percentage in the well known cities, then design a sample that has a represenative number of those who don't live in such areas. Then you'd be approaching a real representative sample of Muslims in the UK.

But it would take a lot of preliminary work, and I bet the torygraph didn't bother.

 

[poster342002]

Secularism is about protecting religious freedom and belief, and the right to dissent. It requires separation of Church from state and rights to practice religion or not to practice religion free of persecution.

Sharia law entered into voluntary by participants is an entirely different matter to imposing Sharia law on everyone by law.

If the climate of Islamophobia continues we will see a downward spiral with the most reactionary elements throughout society gaining the upper hand. The height of the anti-war movement saw Muslims joining Marxist athiests and Christians in protest. Young Muslim women were at the forefront shouting down megaphones and being all militant and stuff. Just months later and the Pride march was led by gay and lesbian Muslims.

Attacking the Muslim 'community' enforces segregation and defensive reaction.

All these so called liberals who want to impose liberalism on people who dfon't want it should think about the contradiction. If liberalism is really so great then why should it have to be forced on people?

We need to break down barriers, be less judgemental, but most of all we need to be supportive amidst a real sense of solidarity.

Religious ideas thrive amidst poverty and powerlessmess as do nationalist, homophobi, sexist and racist ideas. Religious people do not have a monopoly on reactionary ideas or on mysticism. The mystical worship of the free market economy is a religion in itself. While liberation theology for one shows that religion is not always bound within entirely reactionary limits. Indeed, a large part of rebellious dissent throughout history has been couched in religious terms.

A fight against poverty, war, oppression and for working class solidarity is the path to liberation for all. Solidarity cannot and must not exclude those of faith. Until the left takes this on board, the tacit collussion with the racism that is Islamophobia will weaken the left, the working class and will push Muslims into the hands of seperatists and reactionaries.

Errr, yeah... BUT:

I suspect there's many people in the muslim communities who would not want this. How would they be able to "opt out" if local self-appointed "community leaders" managed to get it imposed in a given area? Would individual muslims have a right to opt out of sharia law?

And, more to the point, who would the left support in the eventuality of individual muslims asserting their right not to be governed by sharia? (there'd probably be total deafening silence, but maybe someone'll say otherwise).

 

[nino_savatte]

But what does this really mean?

A pollster rings up a random Muslim and says 'do you support the introduction of Sharia law in the UK' and the respondent answers, 'yes every fibre of my being thirsts for it, and every one of my waking moments is devoted to the cause'?

Or was it more like this: a pollster rings up a random Muslim and says 'do you support the introduction of Sharia law in the UK' and the respondent answers, 'I never really thought about it much, yes, I suppose so, look I really have to go now, I'm in the middle of cooking the tea and the kids are acting up'.

Because opinion polling sure as hell ain't no exact science. 9 out of 10 people will tell you the first things that come into their heads.

Indeed and one needs to question the purpose of publishing such a poll in the first place. I suspect the Torygraph is pandering to the fears of those who see themselves as advocates and defenders of a sort of "democracy".

 

[chilango]

How much does any of you, debating "shari'a law" as if you know all about it, actually knows about it?

Can you explain "shari'a law" to me, in detail?
Thank you.

salaam.

I taught a group of Shari´a judges for a while once.

I also lived under Shari´a law for a time too.

 

[slaar]

Indeed and one needs to question the purpose of publishing such a poll in the first place. I suspect the Torygraph is pandering to the fears of those who see themselves as advocates and defenders of a sort of "democracy".

Sure, but that's already been pointed out. It's an obvious point but one worth making. I'm more interested though in people's opinions on whether a version of Sharia law practived in limited areas and with limited remit (i.e. by 'choice') would be acceptable to people here, or to this country more generally.

 

[dylanredefined]

No its one law for all of us if someone cant live under uk law suggest
they leave the country .If they introduce sharia law in an area and someone
decides to enter the area drinking alchol eating a bacon sarnie what happens?
And whose version of sharia law ? The talibans or another more acceptable
(to the rest of the uk) version .You can live under islamic law if you want to
in this country for the most part no one is stoping you .But making your neighbours live under it is ridicilous .

 

[kyser_soze]

Sure, but that's already been pointed out. It's an obvious point but one worth making. I'm more interested though in people's opinions on whether a version of Sharia law practived in limited areas and with limited remit (i.e. by 'choice') would be acceptable to people here, or to this country more generally.

When it comes to stuff such as contract law I don't have an issue, with the proviso that any such contract must be legallty enforceable under UK/EU law also.

As for social laws...well, allowing individual communities the legal power to create self-governing/judging units that are separate and different to national laws would be the begining of an anarchy wouldn't it? The question then becomes would allowing people to consent to live under law which cuold restrict freedoms granted to the wider population be a moral thing to do? I don't think it would.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

And while the Telegraph et al continue to push the "Muslims - The Enemy Within" line, raising the irrelevant spectre of Sharia law coming into play in the UK which just simply is not going to happen, we get stuff like the bill referred to in this thread: http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=152162

It will become possible for the government, by ministerial order, without a debate in parliament, to create new criminal offences, punishable with less than two years imprisonment. It could also, according to Cambridge law professor John Spencer (who is not alone in his analysis), introduce house-arrest, give the police stronger powers of arrest and interrogation, set up new courts, and in effect re-write the rules on immigration, nationality, divorce, inheritance and the appointment of judges.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1709926,00.html

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

But what about the demographics of this poll? If respondants were broken down by age, would it be that very few young muslims want such a law?

My suspicion is no, but if the answer is yes, then oh dear!

Quite honestly, it has to be asked why muslims who emigrated to a country like britain want such a disgraceful and cruel law to be part of their life. What were they leaving behind that they didn't want when they left their orginal home country?

Fuck man, the advancement of countries like britain: all those rights accorded anyone who settles in the country; i have zero rights living here in thailand! Complain and i'd be out on my arse very pronto.

How can you call this a disgracefull law?. I do not like this law myself but it is part of the Islamic religeon as long as they don't go to the extream then it should be fine. Multi-culturalism is about respecting all cultures not just cultures that fit within a western context. I think!

 

[kyser_soze]

*falls off chair laughing at mention of multi-culturalism*

 

[nino_savatte]

Sure, but that's already been pointed out. It's an obvious point but one worth making. I'm more interested though in people's opinions on whether a version of Sharia law practived in limited areas and with limited remit (i.e. by 'choice') would be acceptable to people here, or to this country more generally.

Well, I'm with the secularists on this - naturally. I wouldn't want to see Sharia law enacted anywhere in this country anymore than I would want a return to full Church Law (it wasn't that long ago that plays had to be submitted to the Lord Chamberlain's office for approval). But I'm not going to get worked up over this, so it is unlikely that this poll will have the desired effect upon me as opposed to the average Telegraph reader.

It's a nice bit of scaremongering by the Torygraph.

 

[dylanredefined]

Go and live in saudi then .Its not going to happen here without a majority
and that isnt going to happen in my life time .

 

[tangentlama]

Go and live in saudi then .Its not going to happen here without a majority
and that isnt going to happen in my life time .

would you also oppose the existing Beth Din courts in the UK?

 

[soulman]

would you also oppose the existing Beth Din courts in the UK?

Never heard of a Beth Din court before, probably cos I don't give a shit about any religion, they're all bollocks, nothing more than a few hypocritical leaders trying to mystify as many people as possible - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_din

 

[where to]

"ICM interviewed a random sample of 500 Muslim people by telephone between 14-16th February 2006. Muslim people were initially identified from a much larger sample of all adults interviewed on large scale random telephone surveys conducted by ICM. Those who said they are Muslim were re-interviewed for this survey. In order to achieve the sample of 500, some respondents were asked for the telephone numbers of another Muslim. In all 43 interviews were achieved in this way. The data has been weighted to the profile of British Muslims according to the 2001 Census. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules."

icm poll

said amongst other things:

80% said Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live within it and not seek to bring it to an end

12% said right for Muslim demonstrators to carry placards calling for the killing of those who insult Islam

4% said right for Al-Qa'eda or those sympathetic to Al-Qa'eda to attack Western targets

91% said they felt very or quite loyal to the uk


"Would you support or oppose there being areas of Britain which are pre-dominantly Muslim and in which Sharia Law is introduced?"

40% said yes,
41% no
19% don't know

amazingly (to me) only 60% agreed that a military strike against Iran would never be justified, even if Tehran is building nuclear weapons

 

[tangentlama]

Never heard of a Beth Din court before, probably cos I don't give a shit about any religion, they're all bollocks, nothing more than a few hypocritical leaders trying to mystify as many people as possible - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_din

we already have Judaic courts here, so there's no way that we can stop Islamic courts, and why would we want to? they're for the observant Muslim people only, voluntary, and a recourse to civil law can be obtained should either party be unhappy with the verdict and wish to take it further, They administer birth, marriage and funery rites.

Canada has Sharia courts, newly allowed, and this doesn't affect the non-Muslim at all, just the same as Jews using Beth Din courts has no influence on the non-Jew.

 

[poster342002]

.

 

[poster342002]

we already have Judaic courts here, so there's no way that we can stop Islamic courts, and why would we want to?

How about banning all religious courts altogether? How about that for a novel idea?

Otherwise, where does it end? Courts based upon Ancient Roman Jupiter-Worship?

 

[Aldebaran]

I taught a group of Shari´a judges for a while once.

I also lived under Shari´a law for a time too.

Are you sunni or shia and where did you get your education as Islamic scholar? Where did you teach?

salaam.

 

[Binkie]

I think elements of Sharia law could be incorporated into western bourgeois law with a bit of debate and pressure. The other way round too, one hopes.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Didn't we go through having Church law once in this country instead? I know it was a while ago, but I suspect we've got some pretty good arguments as to why it was a Bad Thing...

There is still such a thing as ecclesiastical law, it applies to clergymen and -women for example every now and then, if a vicar has an adulterous affair or is suspected of some other wrongdoing, the case is considered by an ecclesiastical 'court'. I don't know in what other cases it applies, but I'd hazard a guess that much ecclesiastic law has been incorporated into English and Welsh law, because we have the system of common law, i.e. based on precedent.

 

[poster342002]

There is still such a thing as ecclesiastical law,

Just out of interest, what is the highest existing penalty under ecclesiatical law?

 

[s.norbury]

Castration for the lads, none for the lasses?

 

[Idris2002]

Here's an interesting piece from the comrades at the Worker-communist Party of Iran:

http://www.wpiran.org/English/wr1campaigningagainstshariain canada.htm

 

[chilango]

Are you sunni or shia and where did you get your education as Islamic scholar? Where did you teach?

salaam.

Not a Muslim.

I taught them english - in a judicial context.

In Sudan.

PS I found myself interested in Sufism there.

 

[dylanredefined]

If they want to live under sharia law fine no problem .Though I doubt stonings are going to be permited .What the daily telegraph is inferring is that
the muslims want everyone to live under sharia .Which until the majority in this country is muslim isnt going to happen .Just another stupid scare story.