Shakespear for beginners
- Thread starter soulman
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spanglechick said:
"Making it clear that..." was maybe too definite."Presenting the interpretation that..."
Must do some work, mustn't re-read the play... seem to recall that there is a suggestion in the text that nurse may have offered Juliet a tincture to rid her of a... troublesome female issue...
kyser_soze said:
Yes, but it is wrongly accused. The play has long been regarded as problematic and has been a source for anti-semitic characature.
Firstly the film opens with scenes designed to put the anti-semitic atmosphere of the time in context. Secondly, it is a source of major dispute as to whether the play itself is anti-semitic (the accusations that the film is is simply based on that - clearly from the added opening scenes the film makers are not). Shakespeare puts into Shylock's mouth the oft quoted anti-racist statement 'if you cut me do I not bleed?' Only if we require victims of racism to themselves be faltless paragons of virtue would we see the play as anti-semitic. Mike Rosen's book takes on the question as to whether the plas is anti-semitic and concludes that it is not (this is not a universally held view, though).
See it and make up your own mind.
Nemo said:
That 'tradition' arises purely because black actors have not been used to play the lead. This is not something you would expect to see today. Is it racist or anti-racist? Given that Othello is the lead character, given that he is the tragic hero, given that he is wronged and driven mad by jealousy stirred up by irrational hatred of him, the play can be seen as anti-racist.
In the film version Othello is played by Denzil Washington. In every stage production I have seen Othello is played by a black actor.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Sorry, just attempting to inject some faux controversy onto the thread...
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
ahh, now this I can go with - one of the joys of shakespeare is what you can make it mean.laptop said:
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I mentioned it too - k_s is to important to read the whole thread, doncha know...D said:
KeeperofDragons
Crazy dragon lady
King Lear
KoD
KoD
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
MACBETH!
Agent Sparrow
AGENT TRAITOR; fools 8 year olds
If you can find it being performed anywhere, Measure for Measure is a good one. The themes about hypocracy in power and corruption are still very relevent. Plus I also remember that one as being a bit dirty. 
Groucho said:
I've seen Othello played by a blacked up white man (at least I presume that's what he was), or at least one who had been made to look distinctly swarthy.
Agent Sparrow said:
Yep, Merasure for Measure is good, but possibly not one to go for in the first instance.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
spanglechick said:I mentioned it too - k_s is to important to read the whole thread, doncha know...
I have people to read threads for me, doncha know
It's not a bad version, altho the wheels come off the WW2/WW1 imagery toward the end and it looses it's way - it certainly didn't contain the bloody finish I was hoping for and it felt a bit flimsy...IMO of course...
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
ahhh, but the acting's shit hot.kyser_soze said:I have people to read threads for me, doncha know
It's not a bad version, altho the wheels come off the WW2/WW1 imagery toward the end and it looses it's way - it certainly didn't contain the bloody finish I was hoping for and it felt a bit flimsy...IMO of course...
btw - sack your people, they're shite
Hamlet and King Lear are the plays.
Hamlet is the Lion King, with a bad ending, because Hamlet can neer make up his mind what to do, and when he acts in the end, it's too late, and everyone dies. Or strictly, the Lion King is Hamlet, disneyfied.
King Lear is even worse. Have a good leer at a king in trouble, loses his kingdom and goes mad.
When you understand who Hamlet is, or represents, then you understand also why the most famous line in it is so famous.
I only really got it when I was at Glastonbury in 1999, I came across this little tent selling cloths and so on from the far east,
It had a caption on a card outside, the name of the shop, kind of,
"To be or not to be, that is the question, artworks for the 21st century, or The scrap shop? "
And I looked at the cloths, and the artistry in them went on forever, honestly.
Oh, and they're good to read as well as see, btw., those two are.
Hamlet is the Lion King, with a bad ending, because Hamlet can neer make up his mind what to do, and when he acts in the end, it's too late, and everyone dies. Or strictly, the Lion King is Hamlet, disneyfied.
King Lear is even worse. Have a good leer at a king in trouble, loses his kingdom and goes mad.
When you understand who Hamlet is, or represents, then you understand also why the most famous line in it is so famous.
I only really got it when I was at Glastonbury in 1999, I came across this little tent selling cloths and so on from the far east,
It had a caption on a card outside, the name of the shop, kind of,
"To be or not to be, that is the question, artworks for the 21st century, or The scrap shop? "
And I looked at the cloths, and the artistry in them went on forever, honestly.
Oh, and they're good to read as well as see, btw., those two are.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
The tragedies are a piece of piss:
Lear - vanity
Othello - jealousy
Macbeth - ambition
Hamlet - indecision
Lear - vanity
Othello - jealousy
Macbeth - ambition
Hamlet - indecision
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
mmm - other than Kurasowa's Ran, are there any decent film adaptations of Lear? It's a fab play and quite an easy entry point to the canon, but I can't think of a decent film of it...
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
yup -kyser_soze said:
and the other tragedies?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Those *are* the tragedies, ther's only 4 of 'em. Well, at least there were on the A-level course I sat...
Histories, fantasies, tragedies
Histories, fantasies, tragedies
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
mmm thatnks - but i was looking for recommendations based on what you'd seen...kyser_soze said:
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
wha??kyser_soze said:
Romeo and Juliet
Anthony and Cleopatra
Julius Caesar
Titus Andronicus
Corialanus
Timon of Athens*
*to be fair, I had to look that one up
Tragedies, Histories, Comedies (including later plays / problem plays - Winter's Tale, Measure for Measure, Tempest...)
eta - JC - i missed the fecker out
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Surely the tragedies are the stories of a single hero with a tragic flaw, which rules out R&J...
Soz - I wuz tort that there are only 4 tragedies.
Soz - I wuz tort that there are only 4 tragedies.
strung out
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kyser_soze said:
What about the comedies?
Oh, and the tragedies you missed out?
Romeo and Juliet
Titus Andronicus
Julius Caesar
Timon of Athens
Antony and Cleopatra
Coriolanus??????????
Not to mention other tragicomedies such as The Winter's Tale, Merchant of Venice etc.
PS Julius Caesar and Antony and Cleopatra are not classed as histories
Edit: Beaten to it. Doh! Well done Spanglechick!
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
nope that's, iirc - the Platonic definition of tragedy (harmartia and all that).kyser_soze said:
But at anyrate it could be argued that Othello has two flawed protagonists too. Or that Juliet is subserviant to Romeo's tragic path. (if he hadn't gone to the ball, she'd have lived happily ever after with paris etc) Regardless, they're all the tragedies. trust me
strung out
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kyser_soze said:
You were tort wrong then!
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I blame the teeechers.phildwyer said:
