Shades of Grey?

[fela fan]

Never trust british or american media. Full of bullshit and propaganda.

Probably same goes for chinese media. It's always the same for arrogant nations.

Funny how the british and american media are all up in arms about boycotts and stuff now. Where were they two weeks ago on this topic? Why weren't they doing owt about the tibetans' plight before??

Typical shit from the daily propaganda sheets of the anglo west.

 

[rachamim18]

Bluestreak:I do not understand your English and a for crucifixion, not a good comment with regard to Jews, especially this week of all times, but it is your world, I am just living in it.

Fela: Chinese censor what is read both online and in hardcopy. You must have been aware of the whole Google and Yahoo debate with regard to the country? Just because he Western Media reports it does not relegate it spurious. It is all too easy in the West to verify such things.

 

[fela fan]

Fela: Chinese censor what is read both online and in hardcopy. You must have been aware of the whole Google and Yahoo debate with regard to the country? Just because he Western Media reports it does not relegate it spurious. It is all too easy in the West to verify such things.

At the very time yahoo were supposedly censored by the chinese government i was in contact with chinese people via their yahoo email addresses.

And i was training chinese people over in my town who said no such shit was going on with yahoo in their country.

In case my memory is skewed, can you tell me on what basis you know about yahoo?

Finally, western media, at least the anglo portion of it, verify what they want to verify. They support and propagate and promote the system. Because they are part of the system.

It's bullshit mate.

 

[rachamim18]

Fela: Censoring and cutting all access are two very, very different things. Offering up info on subscribers is different than cutting all communication to and fro.

"Chinese all over town.": How would they know? Unless they have been interrogated in China over personal content it would be near impossible. Assuming you live in the UK it just takes it a higher degree of not knowing what is what, far from home and not under any thumb.

"Yahoo.": Although knowing some of my views from another forum you know my lack of respect for HRW, Human Rights Watch. However, in August 06 they issues a very nice annotated report on the very subject, sourced to the nth degree.

In August 02, in order to crack the market they signed the b.s. Chinese Govt. pledge "Public Pledge on Self Discipline for the Chinese Internet Industry." Yahoo was not obeying any laws but voluntarily signing to this Big Brother nonsense for one reason only , money but the Chinese on the other hand did so in their ever vigilant attempt at mind control.

People thing because the Chinese are no longer executing addicts, rolling tanks in Beijing, or offering "Rehabilitation" via Reeducation Camps that things are peachy.

According to Chinese Law? ALL internet companies must provide all personal information and content upon demand (also known as Filtering and Disclosure Order).

As for media, and b.s., Yahoo's Assistant Chief Counsel at the time (so not know his status today) offered up this info to the MEdia quite openly after some good souls in the company leaked it. After first trying to deny it they were forced of course to pony up. The Counsel's name was Greg Wrenn. It was a HUGE issue for so long and not only here in SE Asia (so much for it being a Western Media ploy). At that time believe I was in Israel and remember it being slammed all over the airwaves.

I love China as well, in fact if you consider HK part of it now, and of course it is, I will be in the country in a few days. I absolutely love Yunnan and its people,etc. I do know what Communism is about however.

 

[purves grundy]

At the very time yahoo were supposedly censored by the chinese government i was in contact with chinese people via their yahoo email addresses.

And i was training chinese people over in my town who said no such shit was going on with yahoo in their country.

In case my memory is skewed, can you tell me on what basis you know about yahoo?

Finally, western media, at least the anglo portion of it, verify what they want to verify. They support and propagate and promote the system. Because they are part of the system.

It's bullshit mate.

The Yahoo case was about them supplying info to the Chinese government on users, not about having access to Yahoo services.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14884

Reporters Without Borders are not 'part of the system'

 

[fela fan]

Fela: Censoring and cutting all access are two very, very different things. Offering up info on subscribers is different than cutting all communication to and fro.

"Chinese all over town.": How would they know? Unless they have been interrogated in China over personal content it would be near impossible. Assuming you live in the UK it just takes it a higher degree of not knowing what is what, far from home and not under any thumb.

I live real close to china! Look at my tagline...

The chinese people that we train each year come from yunnan (kunming specifically) and near beijing.

I have started threads on china trying to get a bit closer to what life is like over there than the shit i read in the british press.

One thing to note here is that people talk about all manner of subjects, more than a british or american does usually. There seems plenty of room for freedom of thought and speech.

My point on this thread however is that there should be no boycott by western countries because hypocrisy will be stinking the air, and the olympics are one of the few times in our life that politicians and their stinking rhetoric are sidelined by the people, ie in this case the athletes and all us watching billions.

 

[fela fan]

The Yahoo case was about them supplying info to the Chinese government on users, not about having access to Yahoo services.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14884

Reporters Without Borders are not 'part of the system'

Pigs the lot of them! And i don't mean rsf.

Freedom for people is nothing if powerful people with insanity in their heads combine with corporations who lust after money.

 

[likesfish]

chinese goverment student squishing bstards.
now personally I'm all for squishing the odd student under a tank but I'm never going to run a country you expect a little higher standard from leaders
there not chosen by the people
they don't respect the rule of law
they can fuck off

 

[jæd]

Though of course Fela Fan will be here in a bit to point out how the Chinese Govt is just misunderstood by westerners...

I'm a frigging prophet...

 

[EddyBlack]

Here is a ‘free Tibet’ protest in New York by the UN, where American police battered demonstrators.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

China is an invader, not an indigenous entity seeking to return to their thousands of years old homeland.

Actually Israel's justifications of what it does in palestine on the basis of "Well, it's in the bible" are every bit as specious, if not more so, as China's "Tibet has always been part of China".

 

[frogwoman]

Actually Israel's justifications of what it does in palestine on the basis of "Well, it's in the bible" are every bit as specious, if not more so, as China's "Tibet has always been part of China".

Really? wow, if you hadn't told me I'd never have thought about it that way

 

[rachamim18]

Fela: I actually have mixed emotions over the proposed Olympic boycott BUT...it might truly be the last great chance the Tibetans, the indigenous PEople of that land, have a chance for true self determination.

If the world can help in a non-violent matter should they not just because other situations are not as lucky as to receive the inordinate support Tibet/Tibetans get?

 

[rachamim18]

Renegade: "Israel basing actions on the Bible.": Amazingly this is something seen alot on the internet. The reality though is the opposite. Israel is a thoroughly secular nation (albeit Civil Courts are in the hands of the 3 major monotheistic religions).

In fact, Israeli leaders have often despised the faith of Jews as limiting and counter-productive. Israel base its actions on whatever geopolitical situations it faces, not on spurious books written thousands of years ago.

Many of the Arab factions however DO base their actions and creed on their Scripture. HAMAS? PIJ? Of the 23 internal militant groups Israel deals with , only 4 are non-religious in nature and even they have religious adherents. Too bad because THEIR Scripture forbids the rule of anyone but Muslims, and this limits any chance of peaceful coexistence.

Were Israel to be a religious state (G-D forbid) and base its actions as you think, they would never agree to the 2 State Solution which is central to the ruling party, Kadimah's existence.

 

[frogwoman]

Renegade: "Israel basing actions on the Bible.": Amazingly this is something seen alot on the internet. The reality though is the opposite. Israel is a thoroughly secular nation (albeit Civil Courts are in the hands of the 3 major monotheistic religions).

In fact, Israeli leaders have often despised the faith of Jews as limiting and counter-productive.

yep, we all know that the sixth commandment is limiting and counterproductive ..

 

[rachamim18]

Frog: Case in point, as per conversations in the MidEast Forum, there are 613 Commandmanats/Mitzvot and not 10. #6? That is Goyshe nonsense.

Aside from the 613, whose order is not dictated by Cecile B DeMille,etc., there are the 7 Noahide, are those the ones you refer to in discussing #6?

 

[frogwoman]

You know the ten commandments, right?

the sixth commandment out of the ten ... you know, the one that says "thou shall not kill" ...

If it's "goyische nonsense" then how come the Ten Commandments are read out in my shul quite regularly, unless they're all goyim masquerading as Jews ...

 

[fela fan]

Fela: I actually have mixed emotions over the proposed Olympic boycott BUT...it might truly be the last great chance the Tibetans, the indigenous PEople of that land, have a chance for true self determination.

If the world can help in a non-violent matter should they not just because other situations are not as lucky as to receive the inordinate support Tibet/Tibetans get?

Tibet will never get away from the clutches of china.

Burma will never get away from the clutches of their murderous generals.

Unless a political solution arrives.

Politics is ugly and dirty. Why would we the people punish us the people because of the political actions by criminal politicians?!

Sport and music are two of the great things people have to get our minds off the shit that leaders do in their greedy pursuit for pathetic power and money.

 

[rachamim18]

Frogwoman: I would imagine you attend either a Reform or a Liberal house of worship yes? Conservative ones do rarely have them,but t is the Reform Movement and its attempt to assimilate in Germany, where it was founded (the English Reform Movement is actually different a bit theologically) but is alot, alot cosr than people think.

The Mitzvah you refer to? What you call #6? Is actually #289 of the Negatives. Of the Mitzvot (Mitzvah being the singular, Mitzvot the plural as it is a feminine word - I will not go anal over the theology, just clarifying at a minmum).

It comes about 150 after the Mitzvah of Exterminating Amalek,
I will say though that there are248 Positive, 365 Negative Mitzvot,aka Commandments.

"Goyim pretending to be Jews.": To many of us, they sure are lying! By both HaLacha (theological law) and by Israel's State Law concerning conversions they are not Jews unless they undergo orthadox or Chaddishe instruction and then conversion, a long process.

 

[rachamim18]

Fela: "Unless we the people." But it is one and the same. We create political systems, and soemtimes they are far from perfect, as in China, or so manipulated by foreign powers that we have Mynammar/Burma.

 

[frogwoman]

Frogwoman: I would imagine you attend either a Reform or a Liberal house of worship yes? Conservative ones do rarely have them,but t is the Reform Movement and its attempt to assimilate in Germany, where it was founded (the English Reform Movement is actually different a bit theologically) but is alot, alot cosr than people think.

The Mitzvah you refer to? What you call #6? Is actually #289 of the Negatives. Of the Mitzvot (Mitzvah being the singular, Mitzvot the plural as it is a feminine word - I will not go anal over the theology, just clarifying at a minmum).

It comes about 150 after the Mitzvah of Exterminating Amalek,
I will say though that there are248 Positive, 365 Negative Mitzvot,aka Commandments.

"Goyim pretending to be Jews.": To many of us, they sure are lying! By both HaLacha (theological law) and by Israel's State Law concerning conversions they are not Jews unless they undergo orthadox or Chaddishe instruction and then conversion, a long process.

I go to a reform synagogue, yes.

I thought you said you weren't religious?

 

[camouflage]

I assumed the reports were biased against China. There seems to be an extra effort these days to demonize China by the West as it grows more rich and powerful. The Western media makes alot about Chinese trade in Africa for instance, it's just an America-backed smear campaign. Don't get me wrong, China isn't exactly cuddley, but demonisation is demonisation.

It's pretty rich for instance always having a go at China for being such a big polluter, when it's the demand for cheap goods of our Western markets that drive Chinese industry in the first place. I also think it's cynical of the Tibetan liberation movement to mobilize all these rioters in the hope of provoking China into doing something violent and messy so tht their Olympics will be boycotted and increase Tibetan nationalism... what's so good about a dead theocratic state that it's worth encouraging people to risk their lives to resurrect?

 

[nosos]

I also think it's cynical of the Tibetan liberation movement to mobilize all these rioters in the hope of provoking China into doing something violent and messy so tht their Olympics will be boycotted and increase Tibetan nationalism...

Is there any evidence of a conspiracy to "mobilize" rioters to provoke a bloody and violent Chinese response?

 

[camouflage]

I didn't say anything about a "conspiracy", where did you see the word "conspiracy" mentioned?

I shouldn't have called them rioters though, I meant demonstrators. Anybody who organizes large scale demonstrations in Tianamun-Square Land is playing a very dangerous game of Body-Count/Political-Objective. That's one thing when the oppressors boot is constantly on your neck, Tibet equates to mere sentamentalism though, compared to the likes of Aparthied SA or Burma or something.

 

[rachamim18]

Frog: "I thought Rachamim was not religious.": I am not.

Briefly: I was born to a Sephardic/Mizraci Dad but Ashkenazi mom. mom's family were Bratslav/Breslov Chassidim, or the Dead Rebbe Chassdim as we are known at times, in English.

I was educated in thatw orld, fully.

As a youngster I joined a paramilitary, in Israel, and when I was 16 entered the army in Active Suty for Operation Peace for Galilee, the first LEbanon War I was 16 and the year was 1983.

The nation was on th brink of civil war. "Black Coat" as Charedim (religious Jews) are called, rioted every other day, even assasinating people over such tpics as the right to drive on Shabbat (Sabbath). In fact today your car can still get overturned and torched but then it was much more dangerous.

The army, always loyal to the nation, hated outwardly religious Jews since the creation of modern Israel because were still a very hardcore Socialist nation although we were about to make the transition.

Outwardly religious Jews did not serve. So...I shaved for the first time, had my peot (curly sidelocks) removed for the first time when they shaved my head completely (religious Jews almost always have shaved heads except for the side locks), and even stopped wearing my eepah (headcoverng).

What is so ironic though, is that now my Brigade, NACHAL, has a Charedi batallion!!! Times have changed so much.

"Reform.": No offence, but a terrible movement. there is no middle ground. You are either like me, knowingly or unknowingly living as an apostate, or like my Filipina convert wife, living a very kosher and righteous existence.

If we are aware of the Law, and reject the Law, we then reject G-D. We cannot change the Law to suit us, we must STRIVE (keyword) to conform to the Law.

Please, your faith is your business sister but please tell me you do not have Chanukkah Bushes...hahaha.

 

[rachamim18]

Foreigner: "What is so good about reestablishing a dead theocratic state,etc.?": Your screenname is ironic. As foeigners we have no say in how they CHOOSE to live. The key here though is that China, once again (I should be careful as I post under my real info and will be transiting the nation in 2 days) has invaded and colinialised yet another land.

Yes,yes, I know the long dynamic between the two entites but Tibetans are the indgenous people there, not Han Chinese.

"Body count/objective.": The thing though is that Tibetans are not entering Beijing Dim Sum palaces and detonating human bombs. They are simply saying , let us have our nation BACK. They ARE mainuplating the media with the Olympics, with Gere on TV, the Lama crying,etc and so forth but it does not change the righteousness of their cause.

 

[frogwoman]

Frog: "I thought Rachamim was not religious.": I am not.

Briefly: I was born to a Sephardic/Mizraci Dad but Ashkenazi mom. mom's family were Bratslav/Breslov Chassidim, or the Dead Rebbe Chassdim as we are known at times, in English.

I was educated in thatw orld, fully.

As a youngster I joined a paramilitary, in Israel, and when I was 16 entered the army in Active Suty for Operation Peace for Galilee, the first LEbanon War I was 16 and the year was 1983.

The nation was on th brink of civil war. "Black Coat" as Charedim (religious Jews) are called, rioted every other day, even assasinating people over such tpics as the right to drive on Shabbat (Sabbath). In fact today your car can still get overturned and torched but then it was much more dangerous.

The army, always loyal to the nation, hated outwardly religious Jews since the creation of modern Israel because were still a very hardcore Socialist nation although we were about to make the transition.

Outwardly religious Jews did not serve. So...I shaved for the first time, had my peot (curly sidelocks) removed for the first time when they shaved my head completely (religious Jews almost always have shaved heads except for the side locks), and even stopped wearing my eepah (headcoverng).

What is so ironic though, is that now my Brigade, NACHAL, has a Charedi batallion!!! Times have changed so much.

"Reform.": No offence, but a terrible movement. there is no middle ground. You are either like me, knowingly or unknowingly living as an apostate, or like my Filipina convert wife, living a very kosher and righteous existence.

If we are aware of the Law, and reject the Law, we then reject G-D. We cannot change the Law to suit us, we must STRIVE (keyword) to conform to the Law.

Please, your faith is your business sister but please tell me you do not have Chanukkah Bushes...hahaha.

Isn't it a kippah?

And no, I don't have any hanukkah bushes. Do you?

 

[camouflage]

Foreigner: "What is so good about reestablishing a dead theocratic state,etc.?": Your screenname is ironic. As foeigners we have no say in how they CHOOSE to live. The key here though is that China, once again (I should be careful as I post under my real info and will be transiting the nation in 2 days) has invaded and colinialised yet another land.

Yes,yes, I know the long dynamic between the two entites but Tibetans are the indgenous people there, not Han Chinese.

"Body count/objective.": The thing though is that Tibetans are not entering Beijing Dim Sum palaces and detonating human bombs. They are simply saying , let us have our nation BACK. They ARE mainuplating the media with the Olympics, with Gere on TV, the Lama crying,etc and so forth but it does not change the righteousness of their cause.

Okay, so they are looking to provoke China into doing something ugly and loud and 'hopefully' involving killing lots of Tibetan people in order to acheive a wholly respectable outcome.

The Western media doesn't seem to know which side to jump to anyway, either the Tibetan protestors are shrill unwashed anarchists opposing the will of a Government (something the media doesn't approve of) and rightfully beaten up in the streets of Greece, or the problem is Evil China! (it's On The March you know) ruthless, inscrutable, un-Western, brutaly oppressing cuddly Richard Gere approved Tibetans as part of it's plan to take over.

Best to hope both sides find an acceptable outcome with as little bloodshed as possible, and try to ignore all the media-added noise.

 

[jæd]

Okay, so they are looking to provoke China into doing something ugly and loud and 'hopefully' involving killing lots of Tibetan people in order to acheive a wholly respectable outcome.

Oh, and who is saying that...? I think everyone is fully aware China occupied Tibet...

The Western media doesn't seem to know which side to jump to anyway, either the Tibetans are unwashed protestors opposing the will of a Government (something the media doesn't apporve of) rightfully beaten up in the streets of Greece, or the problem is Evil China! ruthlessly, inscrutable, un-Western, ruthlessly oppressing cuddly richard Gere approved Tibetans.

Problem is that China have a lot of clout...

Best to hope both sides find an acceptable outcome with as little bloodshed as possible, and try to ignore all the media-added noise.

So... Its ok for China to occupy peaceful country and suppress the indigenous people, but is wrong for the Allies to topple dictators and try and let their people rebuild their country...

 

[camouflage]

Oh, and who is saying that...? I think everyone is fully aware China occupied Tibet...

Um... don't understand, I assume the Tibetans hope to provoke a bloody clamp-down by China, meaning the Olympic community will have to boycott Chinas game...

So... Its ok for China to occupy peaceful country and suppress the indigenous people, but is wrong for the Allies to topple dictators and try and let their people rebuild their country...

I knew someone would rightly point that out. No, it's not okay, China should agree to leave Tibet.

But you're a naive fool if you really think Western armies invaded Iraq " to topple dictators and try and let their people rebuild their country."

"I broke into my neigbours house and took control of his stuff, it was in my interests to do so, I was merely looking out for my interests, I am interested in my neigbours stuff" is more like it.