Seymour Hersh: Obama's Entire Account Of bin Laden's Death Is One Big Lie

[littlebabyjesus]

If the CIA or America security forces could claim that they had found Bin Laden through torture/enhanced interrogation it would be a pretty strong rebuttal (i.e. "yes it's unfortunate that we do this but we have found that it can provide important intelligence like where Bin Laden is hiding").

I think that's very naive, especially as we're talking about the Obama administration. Has Obama even once directly admitted to having authorised torture? To do so would be political suicide - he's stated several times that he thinks any torture that was carried out by US forces was a mistake.

 

[StoneRoad]

Whilst I am often very sceptical of the "official" version of many events involving americans / terrorists / governments - especially when there is no truly independent witnesses / source of information; it is useful to apply "occam's razor" and look for the least complicated / lowest level of conspiracy/cover up as being a possible explanation.

 

[Casually Red]

Well one would think that given the sensitive nature of who and what is housed and based in abbottabad , and with previous large scale attacks on military installations, that explosions and gunfire would attract a response . Blowing up your damaged chopper is a bit noisy...As well as crashing it in the first place . but no . Not so much as a peep from the Pakistanis despite the yanks hanging about waiting for their lift for nearly half an hour.That's a strong indicator they knew in advance and held back .

Remember always not to crash your helicopter in abbottabad...home of generals, colonels, high officials and all sorts of sensitive sites and facilities in a country plagued with attacks on them .half an hour later and there'll still be no sign of any cops or anything .

 

[Sirena]

I always thought it was ludicrous to think that Pakistani authorities would do nothing if a couple of unidentified helicopters landed in an area close to an army base. then let of a load of explosions, and hung around for quite a wile before being extracted by another helicopter. Some kind of firefight at least. Unless they new about it all along.

And America reportedly used two previously unknown 'stealth' helicopters to fly, unseen, right next to a major Pakistani city. Pakistan may have poverty but it is also a major modern military nation, capable of building its own fighter jets and its own nuclear submarines. This is not a country with World War II radar.

Imagine if one of those top secret, hitherto unknown, helicopters had fallen into the hands of the Pakistanis? What wealth of top secret new technology would have been gained by Pakistan.

 

[Up the junction]

Agree, the helicopter story is the most glaring.

Hersh wouldn't publish unless he'd had the nod from very high up. In this kind of game you have to assume he's withholding more information in order to protect sources that might otherwise be identifiable within a very small number of individuals.

 

[Sirena]

This is interesting. It does not refute the details of the Hersh article but it does suggest that the main parts of the argument were published 4 years ago by a highly-regarded blogger....

http://www.thespywhobilledme.com/

 

[butchersapron]

Agree, the helicopter story is the most glaring.

Hersh wouldn't publish unless he'd had the nod from very high up. In this kind of game you have to assume he's withholding more information in order to protect sources that might otherwise be identifiable within a very small number of individuals.

Excellent. Lack of sources as guarantor. Less sources the better.Makes you look at conspiracy sites in a whole other light. Not to mention actual investigative journalism.

 

[kenny g]

it's an awfully big and massively complicated conspiracy to hold together and maintain total silence on.

Says the man who initially denied Saville and Cyril Smith were paedo's. The Michael Fish of conspiracy theorists.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Excellent. Lack of sources as guarantor. Less sources the better.Makes you look at conspiracy sites in a whole other light. Not to mention actual investigative journalism.

Actual investigative journalism is something Hersh has a very solid track record in doing.

Another actual investigative journalist, Carlotta Gall, has supported one key claim from Hersh:

Carlotta Gall writes that she also learned from sources that Pakistan's intelligence service, ISI, had kept bin Laden prisoner since 2006 and that the CIA learned about his location from a Pakistani informer who sold the information for $25 million — not, as the White House claimed, by tracking bin Laden's couriers.

"On this count, my own reporting tracks with Hersh's," Gall writes.

From here.

 

[8den]

And America reportedly used two previously unknown 'stealth' helicopters to fly, unseen, right next to a major Pakistani city. Pakistan may have poverty but it is also a major modern military nation, capable of building its own fighter jets and its own nuclear submarines. This is not a country with World War II radar.

Imagine if one of those top secret, hitherto unknown, helicopters had fallen into the hands of the Pakistanis? What wealth of top secret new technology would have been gained by Pakistan.

Which is why the Seals didn't leave the helicopter for the Pakistani military, and destroyed it.

 

[8den]

Well one would think that given the sensitive nature of who and what is housed and based in abbottabad , and with previous large scale attacks on military installations, that explosions and gunfire would attract a response . Blowing up your damaged chopper is a bit noisy...As well as crashing it in the first place . but no . Not so much as a peep from the Pakistanis despite the yanks hanging about waiting for their lift for nearly half an hour.That's a strong indicator they knew in advance and held back .

Remember always not to crash your helicopter in abbottabad...home of generals, colonels, high officials and all sorts of sensitive sites and facilities in a country plagued with attacks on them .half an hour later and there'll still be no sign of any cops or anything .

We're entering into "the US government should have sent fighters up on 9/11" territory. There's no evidence that no police turned up at all and nothing to suggest that officers turned up immediately. What do you think the ISI informed the police in Abbottabad "Tonight if you get reports of gunfire and explosives ignore it". Suddenly you've now involved every cop in the city into your conspiracy cover up.

As you pointed the raid took half a hour tops. The Seal team was in and out before anyone could react.

I think whats more likely is this, Abbotabad police would get several reports of a explosion and possibly gunfire, late at night, send some cops to investigate, (imagine being those cops, trying to describe what they saw, the closest thing I can think of the reaction of Sgt Powell in the original Die Hard) and by the time a Swat team or any sort of actual response could be woken up, the Seals would already half way home.

 

[Humberto]

Why didn't they just bomb the fucker do you think?

 

[8den]

Why didn't they just bomb the fucker do you think?

I think thats why they dithered for some time about the raid. Several members of Obamas cabinet pushed for a missile or drone strike on the compound, and he refused for several good reasons. They weren't 100% certain that it was Bin Laden in the house. A drone strike on a residential area in a relatively affluent city, near a major military base, would have caused absolute fucking uproar in Pakistan, and there were many Pakistan civilian casualties particularly if it turned wasn't Bin Laden in the house. Secondly with a drone/missile strike they'd never conclusively know that they got Bin Laden, Pakistan military would have locked down the compound in the aftermath, and I suspect if the US had gone down the missile route and then turned up the next day and asked the the Pakistan government if they check the DNA of the victims to see if any of them were Bin Laden, they'd have been told to fuck off.

So they went with the assault team.

Which is why I don't believe the whole casually dumping the body in the Hindi Kush part of the story. Every part of the raid was meticulously planned. I don't believe they'd have gone in the the compound without a solid definitive plan of what precisely they'd do with Bin Laden's body (or if somehow they'd taken him alive). Taking the body with them, and then deciding to chuck it out the door half way home doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[Up the junction]

Why didn't they just bomb the fucker do you think?

They needed dna proof he was dead.

 

[dylanredefined]

Well one would think that given the sensitive nature of who and what is housed and based in abbottabad , and with previous large scale attacks on military installations, that explosions and gunfire would attract a response . Blowing up your damaged chopper is a bit noisy...As well as crashing it in the first place . but no . Not so much as a peep from the Pakistanis despite the yanks hanging about waiting for their lift for nearly half an hour.That's a strong indicator they knew in advance and held back .

Remember always not to crash your helicopter in abbottabad...home of generals, colonels, high officials and all sorts of sensitive sites and facilities in a country plagued with attacks on them .half an hour later and there'll still be no sign of any cops or anything .

Well supposedly they saw the helicopters on radar it is not like it could be anyone else than the US. Whining about the terrible US plays well domestically
while they bend over backwards to help.

 

[NoXion]

Which is why I don't believe the whole casually dumping the body in the Hindi Kush part of the story. Every part of the raid was meticulously planned. I don't believe they'd have gone in the the compound without a solid definitive plan of what precisely they'd do with Bin Laden's body (or if somehow they'd taken him alive). Taking the body with them, and then deciding to chuck it out the door half way home doesn't make a lick of sense.

I thought they chucked his body into the sea?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

http://gawker.com/new-york-times-and-nbc-reporters-back-parts-of-osama-bi-1704056610

Various journalists coming forward to back up Hersh's claims, including one person accusing him of plagiarising her original piece about it!

 

[Casually Red]

I think thats why they dithered for some time about the raid. Several members of Obamas cabinet pushed for a missile or drone strike on the compound, and he refused for several good reasons. They weren't 100% certain that it was Bin Laden in the house. A drone strike on a residential area in a relatively affluent city, near a major military base, would have caused absolute fucking uproar in Pakistan, and there were many Pakistan civilian casualties particularly if it turned wasn't Bin Laden in the house. Secondly with a drone/missile strike they'd never conclusively know that they got Bin Laden, Pakistan military would have locked down the compound in the aftermath, and I suspect if the US had gone down the missile route and then turned up the next day and asked the the Pakistan government if they check the DNA of the victims to see if any of them were Bin Laden, they'd have been told to fuck off.

So they went with the assault team.

Which is why I don't believe the whole casually dumping the body in the Hindi Kush part of the story. Every part of the raid was meticulously planned. I don't believe they'd have gone in the the compound without a solid definitive plan of what precisely they'd do with Bin Laden's body (or if somehow they'd taken him alive). Taking the body with them, and then deciding to chuck it out the door half way home doesn't make a lick of sense.

Are you seriously suggesting a drone strike on the wrong house would have caused less uproar than 2 helicopters full of cunts landing , blowing through doors with explosives , shooting any bodyguards or armed people dead...in a country and district were guns and bodyguards are commonplace ...and then saying..whoops...sorry, we were looking for an all night chippy .

These people invaded and destroyed an entire country on the basis of something that wasn't there . And had no right to even if it was . Not a fuck given .

A few years before that they flattened the Chinese embassy in Belgrade . Again , not one fuck given .

 

[8den]

I thought they chucked his body into the sea?

No after verification the body was given to a US naval ship and then buried at sea.

 

[8den]

Are you seriously suggesting a drone strike on the wrong house would have caused less uproar than 2 helicopters full of cunts landing , blowing through doors with explosives , shooting any bodyguards or armed people dead...in a country and district were guns and bodyguards are commonplace ...and then saying..whoops...sorry, we were looking for an all night chippy .

These people invaded and destroyed an entire country on the basis of something that wasn't there . And had no right to even if it was . Not a fuck given .

A few years before that they flattened the Chinese embassy in Belgrade . Again , not one fuck given .

Oh no I do think it caused uproar. However in this case they were completely justified in doing it. I think going in with a assault team to kill or capture Bin Laden was absolutely the right call.

 

[Casually Red]

We're entering into "the US government should have sent fighters up on 9/11" territory. There's no evidence that no police turned up at all and nothing to suggest that officers turned up immediately. What do you think the ISI informed the police in Abbottabad "Tonight if you get reports of gunfire and explosives ignore it". Suddenly you've now involved every cop in the city into your conspiracy cover up.

As you pointed the raid took half a hour tops. The Seal team was in and out before anyone could react.

I think whats more likely is this, Abbotabad police would get several reports of a explosion and possibly gunfire, late at night, send some cops to investigate, (imagine being those cops, trying to describe what they saw, the closest thing I can think of the reaction of Sgt Powell in the original Die Hard) and by the time a Swat team or any sort of actual response could be woken up, the Seals would already half way home.

That part of the world has seen regular mass assaults on sensitive facilities by dozens of highly trained insurgents equipped with night vision and all sorts . Its not milton keynes . Army commandos and special forces would be on standby . Explosions and gunfire in a military district would warrant a lot more than some fat arsed cop being told to put his donut down and go have a look .

Over here intelligence chiefs were regularly able to ensure there was nothing on the ground to hinder loyalist assassins in areas normally heavily patrolled and monitored ,as and when the occasion suited . That went on for decades , on literally hundreds of occasions, and there wasn't a single peep out of anyone within the security apparatus . And what pakistani cop in his right mind is going to cross the likes of the ISI and start making the gravest accusations against them in public ? It's Pakistan FFs. You're approaching this like it's a liberal western society .

 

[Casually Red]

Oh no I do think it caused uproar. However in this case they were completely justified in doing it. I think going in with a assault team to kill or capture Bin Laden was absolutely the right call.

The very notion he would even contemplate living there without Pakistani protection and knowledge strikes me as utterly absurd . It defies credibility .

 

[8den]

That part of the world has seen regular mass assaults on sensitive facilities by dozens of highly trained insurgents equipped with night vision and all sorts . Its not milton keynes . Army commandos and special forces would be on standby . Explosions and gunfire in a military district would warrant a lot more than some fat arsed cop being told to put his donut down and go have a look .

Over here intelligence chiefs were regularly able to ensure there was nothing on the ground to hinder loyalist assassins in areas normally heavily patrolled and monitored ,as and when the occasion suited . That went on for decades , on literally hundreds of occasions, and there wasn't a single peep out of anyone within the security apparatus . And what pakistani cop in his right mind is going to cross the likes of the ISI and start making the gravest accusations against them in public ? It's Pakistan FFs. You're approaching this like it's a liberal western society .

Your argument is contradictory, on one had you're describing this raid as "2 helicopters full of cunts landing , blowing through doors with explosives , shooting any bodyguards or armed people dead" so of course there'd uproar, and at the same time suggesting that the Pakistani military has such tight control over the police that they can literally control over the entire Abbottadbad force that they can shut down the entire city police force and let the americans carry out their raid.

The raid was over in minutes, I don't think the Pakistani military or police was equipped to react fast enough to properly react to it. I don't think there's a single police or military force in the world that would have been able to must a response fast enough to react to that raid. Just think how little time half a hour actually is. By the time anyone would actually turn up they were gone.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The very notion he would even contemplate living there without Pakistani protection and knowledge strikes me as utterly absurd . It defies credibility .

Yep, agreed.

 

[8den]

The very notion he would even contemplate living there without Pakistani protection and knowledge strikes me as utterly absurd . It defies credibility .

I think it's entirely plausible that some elements of ISI or the Pakistani military knew where Bin Laden was and even afforded him protection. But again I think thats strengthens the justification for the raid, and the US not informing ISI or Pakistani of their plan.

 

[Up the junction]

Both stories have plausibility. It's pretty much why we're discussing them.

Has there been an official denial of the Hersh version?

 

[8den]

Both stories have plausibility. It's pretty much why we're discussing them.

Has there been an official denial of the Hersh version?

Yes.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/11/politics/seymour-hersh-obama-bin-laden-raid-lied/

My feeling is this, I think the Pakistani military and security services is a very fractious organisation, with elements within ISI, the military and the government having different agendas and goals, and various internal factions often working against each other. Certain sides would actively support the Taliban while others would be more pro Pakistani and the US. You're talking about the world of international terrorist, and espionage.

It is entirely plausible that Bin Laden was hiding in Abbottadbad with the help of some of ISI, and at the same time that the US were informed of Bin Ladens location by members of ISI. It's also entirely plausible that the US made up the story of the courier and the hunt for Bin Laden to protect their assets within ISI from repercussions of the raid. We're probably never really going to know the true story of what occurred.

Maybe I'm very jaded but after I read Hersh's account, the Whitehouse's version struck me as much more plausible.

 

[Up the junction]

They have to deny as it's their own story what might be interesting is the tone and terms. Nothing there for Saudi to have to publically respond to.

 

[teqniq]

Brig Usman Khalid informed CIA of Osama’s presence in Abbottabad

Pulitzer prize winning American journalist Seymour Hersh’s most recent claim that a former Pakistani intelligence official had actually informed the Americans about the Abbottabad hideout of al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden (OBL), has given credence to the notion that a former ISI official provided the information about Osama’s location in exchange of US$ 25 million bounty as well as the US citizenship with a new identity.

Well-informed intelligence circles in the garrison town of Rawalpindi concede that the vital information about the bin Laden compound was actually provided to the Americans by none other than an ISI official - Brigadier Usman Khalid. The retired Brigadier, who has already been granted American citizenship along with his entire family members, persuaded Dr Shakil Afridi, a Pakistani physician, to conduct a fake polio campaign in the Bilal Town area of Abbottabad to help the Central Intelligence Agency hunt down Osama....

 

[Casually Red]

I think it's entirely plausible that some elements of ISI or the Pakistani military knew where Bin Laden was and even afforded him protection. But again I think thats strengthens the justification for the raid, and the US not informing ISI or Pakistani of their plan.

I forgot , you're a middle class dubliner . Your instinctively putting forward the " bad apple " theory . The old faithful, bred into you . The one the Dublin media resorted to every time collusion literally screamed in your faces for about 30 years . " elements ". ....baddies with cross purposes to the " goodies" . God forbid officialdom would ever be rank and corrupt to the core . That the powers that be would be that cynical .