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sex trafficking? what sex trafficking?

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No that is not the argument. What those of us who deny the existance of trafficking are saying is that the anti trafficking lobby has pursued a moralistic anti prostitution agenda under the cover of rescuing the victims of trafficking. No "victims" are being rescued at all. Instead sex workers are being criminalised and denied basic human rights

They have manipulated opinion and now they have been shown to be liars. The entire house of cards has come crashing down.

Trafficking is a myth. You have been lied to

Trafficking is absolutely, demonstrably and clearly not "a myth".

While you make a reasonable point about sex workers being treated fairly and having their rights respected, you ignore the abundant evidence that except for a small minority (and none of those are in the most at risk group, ie: those on the streets) those "workers" are in fact compelled to do what they do for a number of reasons outlined earlier by various people on this thread.
 
Trafficking is absolutely, demonstrably and clearly not "a myth".

The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution

It's a myth. and the odd gangster in the papers doesn't change the fact that the claims of the "anti traffickers" that all prostitution is slavery is clearly false.

Sex workers are not victims to be rescued. They are workers who need rights.
 
Did anyone see Nikki Adams (ECP) take Denis McShane's arguments apart on newsnight? Even Paxman was impressed with Nikki, a formidable spokeswoman on a range of subjects.
 
I currently work with male sex workers. None of them see it as a "free choice".

Some male sex workers, GMB members, attended a Lambeth Trades Council earlier this year. One plank of their argument was that they chose to work in the industry; and, thus should have the same rights as all other workers.
 
An interesting thread beofre it was derailed by the usual suspects.

Basically, the facts as presented in the guardian article are incredibly misleading. For example the fact that police charged and prosecuted two people who originally seemed to be victims is presented as a fuck up. It's actually a well known fact that former victims of traffickers will often become traffickers themselves, either through coercion or because they feel they have no other choice economically. There is a huge stigma around any form of violence against women in these societies and much of the time their families will disown them, also they will have missed out on their education and work opportunities, they may feel that is the only option left.

Secondly, there is increasing evidence that the "profile" of a trafficking victim has changed over time. It's no longer naive middle class girls from a sheltered background who thought they were going to be secretaries or something. It's come to resemble the profile of trafficked women within the UK who have frequently got severe mental health problems, mental retardation or who grew up in highly disturbed backgrounds. A lot of them are being trafficked from care homes. Like in the UK. Some also come from countries where access to this education is limited, or for example the roma community

I'm sure the figures for trafficking in the UK are exaggerated and tend to feed more into more general fears about immigration, but nonetheless to call it a myth is total bollocks and not surprising coming from posters who have a certain agenda in mind. It's just not like how the Guardian et al are portraying it (which is surprising given a few months ago they did an article about the extent of trafficking in the chinese community and said the police/gov't weren't doing ENOUGH...)
 
Sure people don't lose their moral responsibility when they use prostitutes, but it must be a long, long road to get there that perhaps you'd have to travel to really understand. Whatever the right approach is locking them up isn't it.
Corrected
 
Some male sex workers, GMB members, attended a Lambeth Trades Council earlier this year. One plank of their argument was that they chose to work in the industry; and, thus should have the same rights as all other workers.

I agree sex workers should have the same rights as other workers. This doesn't mean one has to stop thinking critically about the context in which this work and the choices that lead one to it, take place.
 
Did anyone see Nikki Adams (ECP) take Denis McShane's arguments apart on newsnight? Even Paxman was impressed with Nikki, a formidable spokeswoman on a range of subjects.

I don't think I've ever seen a politician perform as badly as the appaling McShane did last night, a total joke who couldn't make a decent point to save his life.

The whole history of this governments attempts to 'do something' about prostitution have failed miserably. Every crackdown, and moving on of sex workers from their preferred localities has led to more attacks and more deaths.

Tho obviously not of people new labour actually care about.
 
sex workers are perverts??!!

congratualtions, moronic post of the day award, and it's not even half past ten!
 
An interesting thread beofre it was derailed by the usual suspects.

Basically, the facts as presented in the guardian article are incredibly misleading. For example the fact that police charged and prosecuted two people who originally seemed to be victims is presented as a fuck up. It's actually a well known fact that former victims of traffickers will often become traffickers themselves, either through coercion or because they feel they have no other choice economically. There is a huge stigma around any form of violence against women in these societies and much of the time their families will disown them, also they will have missed out on their education and work opportunities, they may feel that is the only option left.

Secondly, there is increasing evidence that the "profile" of a trafficking victim has changed over time. It's no longer naive middle class girls from a sheltered background who thought they were going to be secretaries or something. It's come to resemble the profile of trafficked women within the UK who have frequently got severe mental health problems, mental retardation or who grew up in highly disturbed backgrounds. A lot of them are being trafficked from care homes. Like in the UK. Some also come from countries where access to this education is limited, or for example the roma community

I'm sure the figures for trafficking in the UK are exaggerated and tend to feed more into more general fears about immigration, but nonetheless to call it a myth is total bollocks and not surprising coming from posters who have a certain agenda in mind. It's just not like how the Guardian et al are portraying it (which is surprising given a few months ago they did an article about the extent of trafficking in the chinese community and said the police/gov't weren't doing ENOUGH...)

I'm sorry if you think those of us who have long argued against the "anti trafficking" industry have a certain agenda. I am not entirely sure what agenda you think we have and I object to the idea that we have somehow hijacked this thread. On the contrary, I think it is you, who continue to peddle the lie of "trafficking" who have a hidden agenda, a moralistic anti prostitution agenda which to seeks to push an abolitionist policy in the name of "anti trafficking"

So let me spell out my agenda. I lived in Cambodia for over 10 years. I consider many of the sex workers in PP to be my valued friends. Some of these women I have known since the first day they walked into a bar and I have seen many of them reach the age where they can no longer work and they begin the long slow decline into poverty and loneliness. i have seen the abuse they suffer and I have watched many of them die, poor and alone from disease and a life of abuse.

My agenda is simple. I believe as they do that the lives of sex workers would be improved by guaranteeing their rights. Their human rights and their rights as workers and that instead of pushing an abolitionist agenda which only hurts sex workers, sex work should be decriminalised and the rights of sex workers protected in the same way as all workers.

I believe that the one group of people whose voices are never heard are the women themselves. I think we would all benefit from actually listening to them instead of forcing a western moralist agenda down their throats.


Take a moment to actually listen to what they say

http://blip.tv/file/970833/

Instead, in the name of "anti-trafficking" these workers are persecuted, arrested, raped and robbed by police, forcibly "rescued and imprisoned in "rehabilitation" centres against their will.
The US government enforces sanctions against developing countries that don't meet their standards of "anti trafficking." In effect they force developing nations to enact and enforce anti prostitution laws that criminalise the entire sex industry.

Since Cambodia enacted "anti trafficking" legislation, brothels, bars and other safe places of work have been closed and women forced to work in dangerous circumstances in the parks and streets.

The human rights of prostitutes have been trampled and they have been driven into the arms of organised crime. The police have used this legislation to abuse thousands of women. Women have been robbed and raped by the police. They are now routinely forced to bribe police to avoid being "rescued" and detained. Health organisations that distribute condoms have been raided and closed. All as a direct result of "anti-trafficking" legislation

This is fact and it is now. Anti trafficking" is nothing less than a smoke screen for a moralistic anti prostitution campaign. WAKE UP. TRAFFICKING IS A MYTH.

My agenda is very straight forward. I think people should listen to what sex workers actually say and what they want. They don't want to be rescued or saved. They want their rights

Don't take my word for it listen to the voices of the women themselves.


Sex work is work. Sex workers need workers rights.
 
Thats the daftest thing I've heard all year.

The proposition that prostitution causes a lot of people a lot of trouble is fairly self-evident. It's easy enough to get from there to "something must be done".

But why not do it properly rather than all these half-hearted "initiatives"?
 
If you think the sex workers in these videos should be treated as criminals then you are beyond contempt and I really have nothing to say to you.

I expect the difference between the two of us is that you want to make it marginally easier for these people to continue to perform dangerous, degrading, socially-damaging work and I'd like to destroy the whole industry and have those people find alternative employment.

Frankly, you're not much better than a pimp yourself.
 
I expect the difference between the two of us is that you want to make it marginally easier for these people to continue to perform dangerous, degrading, socially-damaging work and I'd like to destroy the whole industry and have those people find alternative employment.

Frankly, you're not much better than a pimp yourself.

And you are no better the gang raping cops in Phnom Penh.
 
And you are no better the gang raping cops in Phnom Penh.

I hardly think you can hold me responsible for police in a foreign country being unable to uphold their own laws and act decently.

I'm sure Cambodians are quite capable of organising their own affairs among themselves. I'm much more interested in stopping the industry in this country.
 
I hardly think you can hold me responsible for police in a foreign country being unable to uphold their own laws and act decently.

I'm sure Cambodians are quite capable of organising their own affairs among themselves. I'm much more interested in stopping the industry in this country.

Idiot. Anti-trafficking legislation is enforced through sanctions by the US government. Developing countries that don't play ball are subject to sanctions. The abuse that Cambodian sex workers are suffering is a direct result of "anti trafficking" laws
You see? you are confronted with the direct consequences of the laws you support, the rapes, the illegal confinement, the robberies, the coercion and abuse and you throw your hands up and say "nothing to do with me" You are morally bankrupt. Give it up
 
you are confronted with the direct consequences of the laws you support

I have absolutely no interest in the policies and conditions that one foreign government imposes on another. Only in this country, where a general clampdown on prostitution is both necessary and realistic.
 
Sex work is work. Sex workers need workers rights.

I don't agree with you, but this is fair enough to argue.

But to say that trafficking is a myth is just rubbish and I am offended. I have met numerous people trafficked into the UK for sexual exploitation. They were traumatised. Many had PTSD. That's not a myth, that's their experience. They weren't workers, they were slaves.
 
I have absolutely no interest in the policies and conditions that one foreign government imposes on another. Only in this country, where a general clampdown on prostitution is both necessary and realistic.

So you choose to ignore the consequences of "anti trafficking" legislation for the vast majority of sex workers around the world. ignorance is indeed bliss
 
untethered said:
Only in this country, where a general clampdown on prostitution is both necessary and realistic.
Tell me again why it's "neccesary"? It gives me a hard on. Are you, like, religious or something?
 
So you choose to ignore the consequences of "anti trafficking" legislation for the vast majority of sex workers around the world. ignorance is indeed bliss

I expect that significantly suppressing prostitution in the UK is sufficient challenge for now. Other countries' experiences may be informative but I doubt there is much useful comparison between the UK and Cambodia.

You have your priorities (which seem to comprise making prostitution just barely tolerable for some of the world's most vulnerable people) and I have mine.
 
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