Sex Tourism
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Agent Sparrow
AGENT TRAITOR; fools 8 year olds
If our culture was different there might be, I guess we can't tell for certain. But the way things are, the female body is packaged more as a sexual commodity to be bought than the male. Those basic societal ideas are so ingrained in our psyches that its impossible to see where innate differences end and societal socialisation starts. But I know IMO I lay the blame much more at the hands of socialisation than biology.TeeJay said:Is there a demand for that sort of thing? Would women pay to see this?
The new trend of Western women picking up Carribean men if anything does show that these traditional differences are a product of our society - as women become more emancipated in their ability to comsume and in being able to admit ownership of an active sexuality, I guess for some that will cross over into buying sex.
Yes exactly. Most of these women I should think have the choice of going into the sex industry, or having their family starve to death.\\-(*o*)-// said:People do counter that these women have a "choice" and that is true to a degree, but their scope for making other choices, of having alternative ways,avenues, for change that can help them or their dependants out of impoverishment is narrow or nearly non existent.
(btw \\-(*o*)-//, cool name, but if you ever turn up to an urban meet how are you going to introduce yourself?
)
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
is there really a market for that?TeeJay said:
It's an interesting debate.
Some take the view that it's really about economics rather than gender.
At the end of the day, as people have pointed out, the majority of prostitutes aren't necessarily wealthy.
In HK (where, as in the UK, prostitution is legal but pimping and soliciting aren't,) there are what're known as "one woman one room brothels", which, as the name suggests, comprise an individual renting a room, usually in certain areas, and working alone from their room.
In this scenarion prostitutes can operate closely together for safety and support (they'll each rent a room in a flat converted for the purpose), pocket all their own earnings and, crucially, stay within the law.
It's interesting to note that whereas it's common here to find women comprising a sizeable proportion of manual labourers on buliding sites, etc. iprostitution is a trade that largely lends itself to women. There are a few gigilos in town, but very few really compared to women.
Prostitution is not for everyone, but it doesn't have to be a bad life if your up for it. Most of these women earn about twice the average wage (the equivalent of about fifty thousands poiunds a year in the UK), almost ten times what you'd get flippin' burgers here or diggin' roads, and freely admit they have a fairly easy life (couple of tricks/johns a day five days a week).
In this context, prostitution probably doesn't seem like such a bad career choice for young (or mature) women for whom life otherwise would be burgers or building sites. The entry barriers are low, regulation minimal, your yer own boss and it's a job that yoyu can do part or full time at will and largely choose your own working hours. It can be done for short periods to "tide you over" or on a more permanent basis. And the money is tops!
Unfortunately for young (and mature) men, such job opportunities are much rarer and, hence, unemployment rates among lower educated men is significantly higher than among women of similar social women.
As I mentioned, it's not for everyone, but I bet there are many, MANY men wishing there were many more such opportunities for them within the profession.
So I guess gender does have spomething to do with it too.
Woof
Some take the view that it's really about economics rather than gender.
At the end of the day, as people have pointed out, the majority of prostitutes aren't necessarily wealthy.
In HK (where, as in the UK, prostitution is legal but pimping and soliciting aren't,) there are what're known as "one woman one room brothels", which, as the name suggests, comprise an individual renting a room, usually in certain areas, and working alone from their room.
In this scenarion prostitutes can operate closely together for safety and support (they'll each rent a room in a flat converted for the purpose), pocket all their own earnings and, crucially, stay within the law.
It's interesting to note that whereas it's common here to find women comprising a sizeable proportion of manual labourers on buliding sites, etc. iprostitution is a trade that largely lends itself to women. There are a few gigilos in town, but very few really compared to women.
Prostitution is not for everyone, but it doesn't have to be a bad life if your up for it. Most of these women earn about twice the average wage (the equivalent of about fifty thousands poiunds a year in the UK), almost ten times what you'd get flippin' burgers here or diggin' roads, and freely admit they have a fairly easy life (couple of tricks/johns a day five days a week).
In this context, prostitution probably doesn't seem like such a bad career choice for young (or mature) women for whom life otherwise would be burgers or building sites. The entry barriers are low, regulation minimal, your yer own boss and it's a job that yoyu can do part or full time at will and largely choose your own working hours. It can be done for short periods to "tide you over" or on a more permanent basis. And the money is tops!
Unfortunately for young (and mature) men, such job opportunities are much rarer and, hence, unemployment rates among lower educated men is significantly higher than among women of similar social women.
As I mentioned, it's not for everyone, but I bet there are many, MANY men wishing there were many more such opportunities for them within the profession.
So I guess gender does have spomething to do with it too.
Woof
\\-(*o*)-//
СМЕРТЬ В МОСКВЕ ♥
Agent Sparrow said:The new trend of Western women picking up Carribean men if anything does show that these traditional differences are a product of our society - as women become more emancipated in their ability to comsume and in being able to admit ownership of an active sexuality, I guess for some that will cross over into buying sex.
IAnd in reply to my post-
Yes exactly. Most of these women I should think have the choice of going into the sex industry, or having their family starve to death.
(btw \\-(*o*)-//, cool name, but if you ever turn up to an urban meet how are you going to introduce yourself?
don't know about that. The fact that some educated and more affluent western women are going to the Carribean for sex holidays might be apparent as some contemporary trend, but posher women have always found ways of using their positions of status and money to get sex from lower class males. I also doubt that western women are emancipated as a whole, to consume yes, but that is hardly freedom, and they are making poorer people into comodities. I do find that distasteful, despite the happy gigilo stereotype and the lady having a bit of rough. The men in these places are living in bad circumstances.
My tagline is Death In Moscow- Smert V Moskve. Guess that is my username, for now.
Agent Sparrow
AGENT TRAITOR; fools 8 year olds
Teejay - I wasn't really talking about ping pong balls literally, it was more to highlight the imbalance of sex workers based on gender.
You and \\-(*o*)-//, I will reply properly to both your posts when my brain is working again, which is unlikely to be today.
You and \\-(*o*)-//, I will reply properly to both your posts when my brain is working again, which is unlikely to be today.
\\-(*o*)-//
СМЕРТЬ В МОСКВЕ ♥
That's okay. I want to add to debate, not to have a go or be confrontational for the sake of it. Don't get me wrong.
So where does all these moralising attitudes come from? What is the purpose of taking extreme examples of vicious exploitation and suggesting that all prostitution is like that? Why vilify men and women who agree to pay for sex associating them with abuse and disease?
All sounds very fundamentalist Christian to me.
All sounds very fundamentalist Christian to me.
polo said:
Agreed.
People trafficking and forced/child prostitution are crimes and should be stamped out as far as possible. (Child) Prostitution during war or conflict. These are extremes of prostitution and, without doubt, the dark side.
At the other extreme, we may picture a "high class hooker", an educated sophisticated person who gladly sells their body to movie stars, the business elite and politicians for thousands of pounds (or more) a pop. Nice work if you can get it!
In between lies the vast majority of prostitution - willingly entered into for a variety of reasons (but almost always involving economics - the trade is usually very lucrative,) and with a greater or lesser degree of distaste, or a greater or lesser degree of happiness.
I have had the chance to speak with many, many prostitutes who lie in this broad middle band. At the very centre, I could point out just one of the profiles an "average" prostitute may have:
Aged 22 - 28.
Been "on the game" for 2 - 3 years.
The job can be fun.
It can be tiring.
Some customers are wankers.
Some are super cool.
Most are OK.
Regular customers are best.
They have other options/choices of work they could do.
They prefer prostitution over any other available work.
The money is fucking brilliant compared to the alternatives.
They are able to support their extended families.
They intend to carry on for the forseeable future until enough wealth has been aquired to jump ship, head home and build a large family house with the proceeds.
At the end of the day, it's just another job, it can be fun, it beats the hell out of tilling fields/flippin' burgers/stacking shelves and is far, FAR more lucrative.
There just aren't enough opportunities in the field for men.
Woof
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
polo said:
I'd say it's because 'extreme' examples are very, very common, unfortunately. And also because you don't know how someone came to be there. I don't think I could justify taking advantage of someone who has quite likely been viciously raped, abused and mistreated on the grounds that they might possibly not have been.
Ryazan said:
Agreed.
But not in just some respects.
As I have mentioned earlier, I believe that this is essentially and fundamentally an economic issue as opposed to a gender issue.
Ultimately, everything is a class issue. And yet prostitution is a superb domain to explore the issues of haves and have nots.
The only way to approach prostitution from the gender perspective is to recognise that for poor people, this is one of the few avenues to earn more (and usually a whole lot more.......TEN times or more) than you can by flippin' burgers or diggin' roads.......other than by mugging grannies, dealing crack or just generally "makin' bad".
Unless and until there is equal opportunity and equal pay in this most ancient of niches within the global community, (and this will only occur once the spurious morality that suppresses the normality of prostitution - both within and between the sexes - is discarded,) we will continue to be subsumed by an underclass of violent men who eschew diggin' roads for the easier (and "last chance") option of "street activity" and "pensioner predation".
Lets face it, if Your last option was between making good money by shagging occasionally for a couple of years or three, or making ten times less by hard labour twelve hours a day for three years, wouldn't anyone be tempted?
Personally, as someone who is terrified about not just getting the bills paid every month at the moment (fuck that, I mean THIS and every month,) but also terrified about my chances of keeping a roof over my head and (mostly and most importantly,) fulfilling my financial duties to those others that I am responsibible for...........
I am not ashamed to say that I am very tempted.
Well.......
Men, unfortunately, generally don't even have that choice....
Muggings, theft, robbery, burglary, violence, depression, domestic strife, child abuse, marital breakdown, gambling, addiction......is the result of this combination of poverty and discrimination.
Woof
Child abuse does not discriminate between social class. And as a survivor of child abuse I find your summary of what poor men get up to quite distasteful. Man + poverty does not = child abuser.
The question is that women, poor women, working class women should not have such narrow choices. And although some sex work might be lucrative, most isn't. And I am not going to pretend that should is a reality, of course it isn't. But the status of women needs improving, and work opportunities, educational opportunities for working class women should be improved. So they don't have to sell sex in order to earn good money. They can if they want to, I am not silly enough to think that sex work will be eradicated in whatever form it might take, but they should also have a wider set of choices with which to consider and have available to them. Rather than just a stark economic reality of better paying sex work, or crap work- which won't be substantial enough in wages for her dependant's needs.
There is also the emotional effects sex work has on people, and the punters themsevles are not all nice either I am sure.
The question is that women, poor women, working class women should not have such narrow choices. And although some sex work might be lucrative, most isn't. And I am not going to pretend that should is a reality, of course it isn't. But the status of women needs improving, and work opportunities, educational opportunities for working class women should be improved. So they don't have to sell sex in order to earn good money. They can if they want to, I am not silly enough to think that sex work will be eradicated in whatever form it might take, but they should also have a wider set of choices with which to consider and have available to them. Rather than just a stark economic reality of better paying sex work, or crap work- which won't be substantial enough in wages for her dependant's needs.
There is also the emotional effects sex work has on people, and the punters themsevles are not all nice either I am sure.
pinkmonkey said:
Did you read that story about a year and a half ago about the huge group of Jaapnese businessmen that came to China, booked an entire floor of a hotel and about 100 prostitutes for a mass orgy?
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Ryazan said:
I wasn't trying to suggest that the equation was that simple. This said, would you disagree that poverty was any kind of factor in domestic violence?
My suggestion was that if there as many opportunities for men in prostitution as there were for women, it would offer an outlet for financial gain that isn't there for men in the same way that it is for women.
Perhaps I was, tho', a little optimistic that it would solve ALL the social problems intertwined with poverty.
The question is that people, poor people, working class people, should not have such narrow choices. And although some hard, nasty, dirty, debilitating work might be lucrative, most isn't. And I am not going to pretend that should is a reality, of course it isn't. But the status of poor people needs improving, and work opportunities, educational opportunities for working class peopel should be improved. So they don't have to do hard, nasty, dirty, debilitating work in order to earn any money. They can if they want to, I am not silly enough to think that hard, nasty, dirty, debilitatingwork will be eradicated in whatever form it might take, but they should also have a wider set of choices with which to consider and have available to them. Rather than just a stark economic reality of low paying hard, nasty, dirty, debilitating work, or crap work- which won't be substantial enough in wages for their dependant's needs.
There is also the emotional effects hard,nasty, dirty, debilitatingwork has on people, and the employers and customers themsevles are not all nice either I am sure.
Agreed!
Agreed absolutely 100%.
Woof
Monkeygrinder's Organ
Dodgy geezer swilling vapid lager
Jessiedog said:
By your best guess, what are the answers to these questions:
What percentage of prostitutes are women?
What percentage of the people who use prositutes are women?
Of the prostitues that are raped or abused, what percentage are women?
Of the prostitutes that are murdered, what percentage are women?
Of the prostitutes who are raped, abused or murdered, what percentage are the victims of female assailants?
I don't know the exact answers (although I'd have a guess at close enough to 0% for the last one) but I think any vaguely reaslistic figure would show that it is a gender issue, whether it's a class issue or not. It seems absurd to argue otherwise IMO.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Not sleazy? Your defn of sleaze is clearly very different from mine.Sunray said:
As for it being a 'cultural thing' - this was something I only ever heard from Western tourists, mostly the ones seeking to justify themselves.
The situation struck me more like this - that people who worked in the sex industry were looked down upon by other Thai people, but that Thai people are more tolerant of things they disapprove of than many Westerners. 'Acceptable' is wrong I think. 'Tolerated' yes, but not acceptable. I mean, once a Thai woman has slept with *anyone*, she is considered unsuitable for marriage in many places - at least among 'respectable' people. So how does that square with prostitution being 'acceptable'? It makes them social outcasts in respectable society. I spoke to some people working in poor, remote, villages in the mountains in the north, from which many girls go to the cities to 'work'. They were saying to me that everyone knows deep down what their daughters are up to - there's no other way to explain the money being sent back - but they pretend to themselves and each other that the girls have proper jobs. Why would they do that if it was acceptable to be a prostitute (and yes, different culture from mainstream in the north, but then who asks where their prostitute is from before doing the deed?).
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Some very interesting views on thai buddhism and its effects on prostitution here:
http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html
It raises an issue that I came across in Thailand and forgot to mention above - that many prostitutes feel able to do what they do because they are gathering karma (by making money for their family) that will count towards their next life. In other words their current quality of life is of no importance to them because they know their sacrifice will get them good things in the next life.
Hell, they might even come back as a *man*.
http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html
It raises an issue that I came across in Thailand and forgot to mention above - that many prostitutes feel able to do what they do because they are gathering karma (by making money for their family) that will count towards their next life. In other words their current quality of life is of no importance to them because they know their sacrifice will get them good things in the next life.
Hell, they might even come back as a *man*.
i think in asia etc. there are girls who have nothing else to do and will stay with you unlike here she would for sure be off to see other clients and earn a living. think of it as a holiday romance but you have the power to pick any one you choose guaranteed, so theres a big reason to be a sex tourist as its a whole different experience. men do it basically cos they can
buddhist.PUNK
Suicide Guide to the Soul
Fidel said:
i have no idea what you said... or what you're going on about cos the whole english way of speaking is totally different the north american style. but i'll just say that if i went travelling and i was looking to fuck a girl, i'd end up fuckin an average looking one. cos its easier then pulling a 10/10 and im not confident enough to even pull an average looking girl in my own country, so maybe being a tourist can help me pull an average looking girl in another country????? who knows.
Reg in slippers
Well-Known Member
why jessie? you after business?
purves grundy
ambient clown remix
In the airport a few months back, I met a Republican lawyer here a few months back who had come over intending to shag as much as possible. In the best Republican anti-science tradition, he was also an AIDS sceptic. He was also a born-again Christian. Strange bedfellows of opinions these, if you'll pardon the prune.
