Sex Tourism

[D]

There's quite a lot of sex tourism in San Francisco and most of the high-profile stuff happens in a rather different economic context than, say, commerce with child/teen prostitutes in East/Southeast Asia. For example, people come to San Francisco for the Folsom Street Fair, the sex clubs/parties, the immense cruising scene, the active and accessible escort population...I am sure that plenty of travelers also make use of its many dodgy massage parlors and its numerous and highly visible hustlers of all genders.

With such a thriving mostly-legal sex culture (but not all of it would be known/accessible to all visitors), I wonder what the statistics are as far as visitors' transactions with streetwalkers and those getting less buck for their bang are concerned.

 

[Hollis]

Well, its still a pretty shocking state of affairs where the easiest way of earning good money (for some I'd imagine the only possible way) is by entering this profession. Mind you, its not too dissimilar the same world over.

I wouldn't mind better in third world countries there's probably alot of blokes who'd, err, enter it if they could.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I wouldn't mind better in third world countries there's probably alot of blokes who'd, err, enter it if they could.

Well, the Carribean is evidence that in some places with high unemployment, that is happening.

And I'm pretty sure you're being flip, but I'm sure there are many men who would prefer to earn their living in a different way. And I guess there have always been rent boys.

 

[Hollis]

And I'm pretty sure you're being flip, but I'm sure there are many men who would prefer to earn their living in a different way. And I guess there have always been rent boys.

Not really. Given the economic situation in these places, people earn money whatever way then can.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

<joke>

I was thinking of going on the game once but I got depressed about the thought of having to give out so many refunds

 

[Ryazan]

Surely people who go to somewhere where they *know* they can buy sex fairly cheaply are not "deluding themselves" at all? That's why they are there!

And is going with a prostitute somehow wrong-er the more sweaty and ugly the person doing it is?

Surely common sense would dictate that those unfortunate enough to be "sweaty ugly" people are those who would have the most need of prostitutes, because they would be less likely to get laid otherwise?

Giles..

it was meant as a joke, but seriously. Although it is less widespread,, it is known that affluent, professional middle aged women go to places like the carribean for paid sex with black men. I think that it is an exploitative relationship. That is all. It is sad when males go to prostitutes, and the same can be applied to these women. Saddos.

 

[Bajie]

Thing about prostitution in Thailand is that its not really here for tourists. About 5% of prostitution is aimed at the western tourist. Thats gonna be mainly in Pattaya and Bangkok. The rest is use by the Thai's and their Malay friends.

The other thing thats different in Thailand is that the sex industry is not sleezy. Its hard to define but it all 'hangs out'. Totally in your face and deemed acceptable by all and sundry. Its a cultural thing.

So what is the general attitude towards women who have worked as prostitutes? no stigmatisation? at all? find it easy to get married into a 'nice' family which has full knowledge of their former work? get other jobs afterwoods, say as a bank clerk or something like that?

 

[ska invita]

Some of the 'they fuckin deserve to get AIDS' attitudes on here are unbelievable. Why the fuck would you wish that on people, just because they want to pay for sex with someone? Cos she's out of their league and they don't deserve her? Get real. Cos it's exploitative? For many women here, it's sadly the most lucrative option they have, and most are smart enough to get as much dosh as they can out of the customer as quickly as possible. Good luck to em - the alternatives are far worse.

As pointed out, few foreign customers are rich geezers on a business trip; a surprisingly large number are your average year out travellers.

My mate lives with, and will soon get married to, an HIV positive ex-prostitute in her mid20's. It's a smart move for him, as he's no spring chicken (but is a wonderful bloke), and it's smart for her as it promises a decent footing for her and her family. If they hadn't met, she'd be dead by now. They met through a disparity in economic fortunes... in what way is their relationship 'wrong'?

You make a strong case, but I have a view that will probably be shouted down (it has been before on urban, but its one of those issues i guess) - let me put it as best I can:

The cornerstone of your position is "it's sadly the most lucrative option they have" - and I'm sure your right about that. However I object to sex tourism, and all sex work for that matter, even the porn industry in wealthy LA, on the grounds that everyone should be presented with better opportunities in life in order to avoid sex work.

Your position is a realistic one, and mine is an idealistic one - and as an idealist i don't look down on sex workers, I just wish that they didn't find themselves in such a position as to have to do the work they do.

Much is made of sex workers being in control of their lives, and as such shouldn't be critcised for what they do - I dont criticise them, I just feel that fundamentaly sex work is something which society should work to alleviating (i.e. the conditions that create it) - I have a problem with the way porn and prostitution is becoming normalised and in fact promoted through certain elements of the media (although I have sympathy with the case for recognising and supporting sex wrokers via the state).

There is a significant proportion of sex workers who work against their will, a further proportion who work because of no better option, others still who have suffered abuse themselves and also many who justify it to themselves but wish things could be different.

Although I agree with you PG, ultimately I don't think sex work should ever be taken lightly or thought of as harmless - and that should be true no matter what your take on the issue.

 

[miss giggles]

Excellent contribution

Why thankyou <curtseys>

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why do people fly thousands of miles to have sex with often average looking girls who almost certainly are not enjoying the sex with them?

My thoughts are in puritanical more uptight countries some men do not feel they can have sex freely with out guilt and need to be in another ´more exotic´ culture to get off.

They are taking a moral stand point of a sort, are really in fucking but dont want the girls (or boys) to think the seduction is going to lead to romance marriage etc.

Its a sleaze trip the punters get off on thinking that mouth could have have just been rimming some other punters arsehole 5 mins ago etc.

The punters are low grade males who like the power the trip of having developing world women giving them the feeling that they are players?

If everyone is of legal age, why do you care?

 

[miss giggles]

Harsh thread this. Gonna defend thailand a little.

Admittedly I have met some of the most incredibly ugly and truely hideous men here, getting their rocks off to the local and often very pretty Thai prostitutes. Due to their size, some of the Thai women can look extremely young, but actually are well into their twenties. If pedo's can get off on that, I would say thats probably a good thing.

Thing about prostitution in Thailand is that its not really here for tourists. About 5% of prostitution is aimed at the western tourist. Thats gonna be mainly in Pattaya and Bangkok. The rest is use by the Thai's and their Malay friends.

The other thing thats different in Thailand is that the sex industry is not sleezy. Its hard to define but it all 'hangs out'. Totally in your face and deemed acceptable by all and sundry. Its a cultural thing.


There is a website that has stories from western men meeting thai women.

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/ (Down at the moment, but I expect that temp)

Its can be quite sad to read at times. Thai women aren't stupid. They are very astute... http://www.bangkokbob.net/10_commandments.htm

With all the attention it now gets, Thailand has been cleaning up it act, its still not perfect. Cambodia is where all the scary sex tourists have now moved to, that is home to the chicken farms....

With all respect, I don't think the girls who I met in Bangkok, who were tattooed by their "bars" after being sold by their families, believed this had anything to do with Thai culture. Admittedly, this was over ten years ago now, and things may well have changed. I don't think those practices can be acceptable in any society. It smacks of slavery more than "cultural".

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'd fund a death squad to rid the world of these sick bastards if I had the money...

60 year old British businessman?

Paying 11 year old boys for sex in a third world country?

Surplus cunt.

*pop-pop-pop*

Three bullets to the head, feed his body to swine.

How about the parents who sell or rent their kids into prostitution?

Triple tap?

 

[purves grundy]

[What they deserve] is actually to be traced back to their home country, and if they have been using children for the deviant pleasure, prosecuted in their own country...

Who but a raging paedo could disagree with this, but this thread seems to be conflating two separate issues - sick fucks who go to LDCs in order to shag children, and adults who go to get cheap sex with other adults. I assumed the thread was about the latter.

As I said there was no mention of AIDS on this thread when I made my comment, so why is it being linked to the words AIDS that appeared long after my post?

They were both your posts though, and seemed to connect. Apologies if that's not what you meant.

 

[purves grundy]

The cornerstone of your position is "it's sadly the most lucrative option they have" - and I'm sure your right about that. However I object to sex tourism, and all sex work for that matter, even the porn industry in wealthy LA, on the grounds that everyone should be presented with better opportunities in life in order to avoid sex work....

Although I agree with you PG, ultimately I don't think sex work should ever be taken lightly or thought of as harmless - and that should be true no matter what your take on the issue.

Agreed. Here in Myanmar, with average wages of about $25 a month, the shocking truth is that sex workers are frequently the highest earners in their family.

I was talking to my mate's gf about this last night. She said family pressure was one of the reasons she went on the game - no member of her family had regular work and they lived next to an open sewer - but also mentioned peer pressure (many of her friends were doing it), and the camaraderie she found between the girls in the clubs and discos. Many of them were only occasional prostitutes - if they needed some cash, they'd go to a disco. They might not go back for a month or two, depending on circumstances, and only when this terrible unpredictability of life ends will the sex industry, in its current massive size, end.

Incidentally, most of the tourists that come here looking for cheap shags are other Asians, mainly Indian, Bangladeshi and Chinese men. The vast majority of her customers were Burmese.

 

[Fidel]

If everyone is of legal age, why do you care?

When somthing is in my face my mind will ponder upoun it.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Not really. Given the economic situation in these places, people earn money whatever way then can.

Yeah, but my point is that its a bit sick really that sex work pays so much better than everything else. Even in the Western world sex work is still one of the very few professions where women earn more than men. And as others have said, while you should never blame a person for making the decision that sex work is the only way they can earn that amount of money, its a crying shame that it is the only way a lot of people can make vaguely decent money in some countries...

 

[butterfly child]

Disgraceful! Ugly men engaging in fornication!! Have they no shame.

There's hope for you yet, Hollis.

 

[pinkmonkey]

Agreed. Here in Myanmar, with average wages of about $25 a month, the shocking truth is that sex workers are frequently the highest earners in their family.

I was talking to my mate's gf about this last night. She said family pressure was one of the reasons she went on the game - no member of her family had regular work and they lived next to an open sewer - but also mentioned peer pressure (many of her friends were doing it), and the camaraderie she found between the girls in the clubs and discos. Many of them were only occasional prostitutes - if they needed some cash, they'd go to a disco. They might not go back for a month or two, depending on circumstances, and only when this terrible unpredictability of life ends will the sex industry, in its current massive size, end.

Incidentally, most of the tourists that come here looking for cheap shags are other Asians, mainly Indian, Bangladeshi and Chinese men. The vast majority of her customers were Burmese.

True it's a myth that Westerners are the most prolific sex tourists - everyone is 'at it'. I used to travel to work in Taichung in Taiwan.

Japanese businessmen would organise sex tours, but tell the wife they were on a golfing holiday. They would arrive on a coach at the hotel, the bellhop would take a group photo of them all with their golf clubs (to show the wife), then the clubs would be 'roped off' in the lobby next to the concierge desk and that's where they would remain, unused all week.

 

[Fidel]

True it's a myth that Westerners are the most prolific sex tourists - everyone is 'at it'. .

True for Brasil too, there are some very in your face areas in some cities geared up to selling an ´exotic´ sex fantasy of Brasil to foreign tourists. But it is a very small percentage of the total industry which mainly serves Brasilian men.

 

[tobyjug]

Even in the Western world sex work is still one of the very few professions where women earn more than men.

I think the 19 ladies freed from sexual slavery in a raid this morning in Birmingham might disagree with you.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I think the 19 ladies freed from sexual slavery in a raid this morning in Birmingham might disagree with you.

In general, toby. And just because some women of course get paid peanuts doesn't of course mean that men don't either.

 

[dylanredefined]

Prostiution may be the oldest proffesion ,but, it should in noway be tolerated either as a job or those who use it .How you do this without hurting
prostitutes I dont know . Its sad and demeaning for all those involved imho.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Prostiution may be the oldest proffesion ,but, it should in noway be tolerated either as a job or those who use it .How you do this without hurting
prostitutes I dont know . Its sad and demeaning for all those involved imho.

Well, to be fair there are women in call girls jobs who do say that they like their work, but I imagine they are the minority. Of course if a woman (or man) genuinely wants to work in the sex industry then, well, there's obviously a demand for it so good luck to them! However, I imagine the vast majority of sex workers world wide are coerced to a degree into such work and/or do it because its better than them and their family starving on the street.

 

[Epicurus]

Who but a raging paedo could disagree with this, but this thread seems to be conflating two separate issues - sick fucks who go to LDCs in order to shag children, and adults who go to get cheap sex with other adults. I assumed the thread was about the latter.

They were both your posts though, and seemed to connect. Apologies if that's not what you meant.

I'm really lost now, what are both my posts? you have quoted 2 people here; unless you think that hipipol and I are the same person?

I have no idea what you are trying to say

Edit: I have just had someone explain what you meant and I think I understand, my first post was a coment on the OP; my 2nd was a responce to a post, I can see how you could link them but there were two seperate post and not meant to be conected.

 

[Hollis]

There's hope for you yet, Hollis.

Many thanks.

 

[miss giggles]

Yeah, but my point is that its a bit sick really that sex work pays so much better than everything else. Even in the Western world sex work is still one of the very few professions where women earn more than men. And as others have said, while you should never blame a person for making the decision that sex work is the only way they can earn that amount of money, its a crying shame that it is the only way a lot of people can make vaguely decent money in some countries...

I've worked with prostitutes in England. Unfortunately most of that money goes to the pimps. That's the nature of the sex industry, and I don't suppose it's much different anywhere else. As for call girls, claims about the money they make are wildly exaggerated. That's how the agencies recruit. Although theur working conditions tend to be better, many are still trafficked women. Those working under free will still face the same hazards to sexual, emotional and mental well being. So many end up with habbits. In all the time I worked with them, hardly any left the industry with the savings they thought they would have. The days when women used the industry to liberate themselves from poverty are virtualy over. In England at least. So many trafficked women are pushed into offering dangerous practises for low prices, that those working by "free will" find it impossible to compete.There are women out there who do make large amounts of money, but they are rare exceptions. The sex industry in Britain today is largely modern day slavery of women.

 

[fela fan]

The sex industry in Britain today is largely modern day slavery of women.

No different to most jobs then. Enslaved by work, enslaved by debt. It's the modern lifestyle.

Seems hard to believe your claim though, but there again i'm clueless about how things work in britain.

As for thailand, many of the girls who go to bars and meet foreigners make a large amount of money. However, often due to peer pressure, the need for gold and gambling come into the picture. Many spend their money as fast as they earn it, but not before sending money back to their families.

Regardless of the morals, looking at 'sex tourism' from the the thai girl's side of things, a lot of money gets back to villages all over the country that has directly come from foreign men's pockets, or if you like, other countries. In other words failings by national government are to a degree corrected by the sex trade that is aimed at foreigners.

Poverty is thereby alleviated, but yet again, women apparantly have to pay the price.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

No different to most jobs then. Enslaved by work, enslaved by debt. It's the modern lifestyle.

To be fair there's a bit of a difference though between having to have sex with people you may find repulsive and putting yourself in potential danger and harm, and working for McDs. As bad as McShite can be, its still not quite in the same ball park. And thats just talking about women who choose to go into the profession.

When I posted my earlier post I did have in the back of my head that in places like Thailand, sweat shops are grim, grim, grim and pay peanuts, so maybe comparisons work better in countries outside the Western world. However, its still pretty sick that the sex industry does offer the only way that many women can actually earn a remotely decent wage.

 

[\\-(*o*)-//]

People do counter that these women have a "choice" and that is true to a degree, but their scope for making other choices, of having alternative ways,avenues, for change that can help them or their dependants out of impoverishment is narrow or nearly non existent.

 

[TeeJay]

...Economic and sexual exploitation isn't just comitted by sweaty, ugly white men, but also sweaty ugly white women too. Now, I am getting cliched!

In fact "white" has nothing to do with it either - there is plenty of exploitation by "non-white" people as well - just three examples: the women from Laos and Vietnam taken to work in brothels in Japan, the continued slavery and abuse in some parts of Africa and the exploitation of workers from asian countries in the middle east/gulf states. No doubt you could find plenty of examples of exploitation within South America, China and India as well - without a "white" (whatever that means) person in sight, although maybe not so obviously as long-distance "tourism" per se. Having said that, tourism can mean travelling a matter of miles.

This is fropm a recent Economist article about HIV/AIDS in China and is talking about a Chinese/Burma border town, Ruili:

"Ruili stands on the border with Myanmar, which provides a constant supply of drugs. Also pouring over the border are the Burmese prostitutes who work in the salons and massage parlours close to the lorry park by the crossing-point. These girls are poor, and cheap; some earn as little as 5 yuan (about 60 cents) per customer. Many carry sexually transmitted diseases, and some are HIV-positive. They may have read the sign by the frontier post that shows a tightly furled condom, held in a delicate female hand, with a message recommending its use for health, happiness and protection against AIDS, but the girls are often too poor, or too intimidated, to refuse a client, often a truck-driver, who insists on unprotected sex."

http://www.economist.com/World/asia/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4223578