Searchlight/Lowles proposals for future anti-BNP campaigning

[The Black Hand]

I'd really try and learn to read before posting Attica, that's the third in a row on here where you display no comprehension of what is written. And that's just on this thread.

Oh do fek orrfff. You display no comprehension or sophistication anywhere ever period.

Rather it is you who doesn't understand the political sophistication with which I post, i do not pay any attention to artificial boundaries the likes of you try to impose

 

[belboid]

How nice for you. Would you care to expands on what that string of words actually means? Because it appears somewhat incohrent.

Were you agreeing with Udo that making popular fronts with the liberals is the way to go? Would you include the tories in such fronts as well? Just who would you exclude?

Does 'political sophistication' mean anything other than pseudo-academic garbage, or am I missing something?

(btw, excessive use of smilies does make you look a tad illiterate and unable tio explain yourself, I'm afraid.)

 

[audiotech]

and he he MC, please note denise g's ( of Lancaster Unity), response in the LU comments .. she links to er HI ( it's a Searchlight/LU/HI love-in! )

Innit.

 

[poster342002]

(btw, excessive use of smilies does make you look a tad illiterate and unable tio explain yourself, I'm afraid.)

In all fairness, so does ranting and swearing.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Belboid, I have nowhere argued for a popular front with liberals.
I merely made the observations that saying "Don't Vote Nazi" and "Vote Labour" are not equivalent and specifying for a vote for a particular party would be an obstacle to building a united campaign.

 

[belboid]

In all fairness, so does ranting and swearing.

yes, he really should stop doing that as well

 

[belboid]

Belboid, I have nowhere argued for a popular front with liberals.
I merely made the observations that saying "Don't Vote Nazi" and "Vote Labour" are not equivalent and specifying for a vote for a particular party would be an obstacle to building a united campaign.

try to remember what you wrote Udo:

forming a united front with people who are LibDem

fine, you pretend this would be a 'united front', but we know from all the SWP's campaigns that it would be no such thing, and would have no class basis whatsoever.

 

[butchersapron]

Belboid, I have nowhere argued for a popular front with liberals.
I merely made the observations that saying "Don't Vote Nazi" and "Vote Labour" are not equivalent and specifying for a vote for a particular party would be an obstacle to building a united campaign.

Indeed, what you argued for was even worse - a united front no less (leaving aside the question of how a UF can apply to the liberals):

There is actually a profound difference. Saying vote Labour effectively blocks forming a united front with people who are LibDem, Green, Respect or any other party voters, it also doesn't cut much ice with people who are staging a protest vote against the mainstream parties.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

"There is actually a profound difference. Saying vote Labour effectively blocks forming a united front with people who are LibDem, Green, Respect or any other party voters, it also doesn't cut much ice with people who are staging a protest vote against the mainstream parties."

Notice the key word "who are LibDem voters"!

I was talking about people at the grassroots. Say Griffin was staging a meeting in my town, and we wanted to physically break it up - it's possible that many w/c people who didn't consider themselves socialists but had an abhorrence of racism might want to join the demo. If we adjusted our tactics to keep liberals and vicars onboard it might be a popular front - but that wasn't what I was getting at.

If the BNP were standing in a council ward and we wanted to do a mass leafleting to say that they are Nazis, once again there might be people who were not socialists involved in the campaign.

Strange for me to talk about "not cutting ice with people who are staging a protest vote against the mainstream parties" if I thought that it was these mainstream parties who would be at the heart of the united front.

But evidently, Butchers and Belboid know more about my politics than I do!

You obviously don't have much confidence in arguing your politics, as you believe they must be hermettically sealed from those who might disagree with you. Try working alongside people and winnign them through debate, argument and practise.

 

[poster342002]

yes, he really should stop doing that as well

Er... not quite what I meant.

 

[butchersapron]

And how on earth does that change anything one iotaudo ? You're arguing for a UF with lib-dem voters (again leaving aside the question of how a UF can apply to lib dem voters, for now) wgiulst saying that you;re not arguing for a popular front with liberals. You are all over the shop. And yes, it is strange that you want a united front with mainstream party voters to undermine the mainstream parties. Very strange indeed.

 

[belboid]

funnily enough Udo, I know exactly what you wrote, no need for you to repeat yourself to try and dodge the point you made. LibDem voters are often actually liberals you know, that's why they vote Liberal. your italics are irrelevant. And you still haven't answered why you'd explicitly exclude tories - sorry tory voters - when you include their yellow counterparts. The half sentence mentioning those who want to protest against the mainstream parties is irrelevant as:
a - you include the LibDems in there, even tho they are a mainstream party, &
b - the UAF policy is explicitly to include all those who do want to vote Labour as well.

Your policy (simply 'Don't Vote Nazi) is simply bland populism, devoid of almost any meaning.

As to knowing more about your politics than you do, well, me n butch both know yours are rubbish

 

[Udo Erasmus]

And how on earth does that change anything one iotaudo ? You're arguing for a UF with lib-dem voters (again leaving aside the question of how a UF can apply to lib dem voters, for now) wgiulst saying that you;re not arguing for a popular front with liberals. You are all over the shop. And yes, it is strange that you want a united front with mainstream party voters to undermine the mainstream parties. Very strange indeed.

You don't seem to be getting what I'm talking about. I see the backbone for an anti-fascist united front being workers organisations like trade unions and left parties, community groups, migrant and ethnic minority organisations and trying to build among working class people.

I don't generally see a united front being built around who people vote for, but it's a simple fact, that many traditional labour voters and even trade unionists now vote for other party's other than Labour. By saying, VOTE LABOUR you cut yourself off from those who are disillusioned with Labour.

The majority of working class people who vote, vote for mainstream parties, so if you don't want people who vote for mainstream parties involved - then it's gonna be a very ineffective movement.

But the united front involves working with and against people simultaneously, working with reformist workers to show in practise that socialist methods are better and break their illusions in reformism.

Actually the question of voters and voting is not the key concern for me, but I was just mentioning it to show that actually there is a profound difference between saying "Don't Vote Nazi" and "Vote Labour" or directing people to vote for a specific party.

 

[butchersapron]

No there's not, because in the current circumstances 'Vote Labour' is one of (in fact the most clear and prominent one) the messages contained within the slogan 'Don't vote Nazi/Vote anyone but BNP'- this is what you can't seem to grasp. 'Vote lib-dem' and 'vote tory' is also contained within those slogans. So rather than undermining the mainstream parties they, in fact (were they to prove to be effective, which they've signally failed to be) you would be shoring up their support.

 

[The Black Hand]

How nice for you. Would you care to expands on what that string of words actually means? Because it appears somewhat incohrent.

Were you agreeing with Udo that making popular fronts with the liberals is the way to go? Would you include the tories in such fronts as well? Just who would you exclude?

Does 'political sophistication' mean anything other than pseudo-academic garbage, or am I missing something?

(btw, excessive use of smilies does make you look a tad illiterate and unable tio explain yourself, I'm afraid.)

Only to the stupid.

 

[The Black Hand]

yes, he really should stop doing that as well

He was talking to you dorkhead for your ranting and swearing.

 

[The Black Hand]

"There is actually a profound difference. Saying vote Labour effectively blocks forming a united front with people who are LibDem, Green, Respect or any other party voters, it also doesn't cut much ice with people who are staging a protest vote against the mainstream parties."

Notice the key word "who are LibDem voters"!

I was talking about people at the grassroots. Say Griffin was staging a meeting in my town, and we wanted to physically break it up - it's possible that many w/c people who didn't consider themselves socialists but had an abhorrence of racism might want to join the demo. If we adjusted our tactics to keep liberals and vicars onboard it might be a popular front - but that wasn't what I was getting at.

If the BNP were standing in a council ward and we wanted to do a mass leafleting to say that they are Nazis, once again there might be people who were not socialists involved in the campaign.

Strange for me to talk about "not cutting ice with people who are staging a protest vote against the mainstream parties" if I thought that it was these mainstream parties who would be at the heart of the united front.

But evidently, Butchers and Belboid know more about my politics than I do!

You obviously don't have much confidence in arguing your politics, as you believe they must be hermettically sealed from those who might disagree with you. Try working alongside people and winning them through debate, argument and practise.

you have hit the nail right on the twat head!!

It's what I have been saying, they are ultra left...

 

[belboid]

I note you continue to refuse to answer the questions Attica. Typical Stalinist dishonesty.

 

[The Black Hand]

No there's not, because in the current circumstances 'Vote Labour' is one of (in fact the most clear and prominent one) the messages contained within the slogan 'Don't vote Nazi/Vote anyone but BNP'- this is what you can't seem to grasp. 'Vote lib-dem' and 'vote tory' is also contained within those slogans. So rather than undermining the mainstream parties they, in fact (were they to prove to be effective, which they've signally failed to be) you would be shoring up their support.

TBH I would rather have the mainstream parties than Griffin. What is wrong with that? That's the difference between being ultra left and having realistic politics That was why the Durham Miners bought 2 Spitfires during the war (they may have bought more than 2, or other stuff for the war effort, but that is the information i have at present).

 

[The Black Hand]

I note you continue to refuse to answer the questions Attica. Typical Stalinist dishonesty.

Again that's you dorkhead. I haven't noticed any serious questions.

 

[belboid]

your ranting and swearing.

bollocks fek orrfff twat twat

yes dear

 

[belboid]

Again that's you dorkhead. I haven't noticed any serious questions.

I am so sorry that your English comprehension is so poor, the standard of teaching these days eh? They'll be giving brain dead stalinists phd's next......

Do you support a popular front with tories and liberals? Simple question.

your last post rather implies you do.

 

[Stoat Boy]

I am a Tory and the only time I would ever even think about voting for somebody else would be if it meant keeping the BNP out.

Now I accept that its not really my 'tribe' who the BNP appeal to so its easy enough for me to stay on the side lines but I do believe that people will vote tactically to keep the BNP out IF the arguments are presented correctly and a degree of unity is maintained.

But having a load of Trots trying to hijack anti-BNP sentiment for thier own little agendas does nothing else other than put people off.

 

[The Black Hand]

I am my English comprehension is so poor, the standard of teaching these days... I don't know why i bother.

Do you support a popular front with tories and liberals?

Hypothetical bollocks doesn't get a reply.

 

[The Black Hand]

I am a Tory and the only time I would ever even think about voting for somebody else would be if it meant keeping the BNP out.

Now I accept that its not really my 'tribe' who the BNP appeal to so its easy enough for me to stay on the side lines but I do believe that people will vote tactically to keep the BNP out IF the arguments are presented correctly and a degree of unity is maintained.

But having a load of Trots trying to hijack anti-BNP sentiment for thier own little agendas does nothing else other than put people off.

Well said.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I am so sorry that your English comprehension is so poor, the standard of teaching these days eh? They'll be giving brain dead stalinists phd's next......

Do you support a popular front with tories and liberals? Simple question.

your last post rather implies you do.

Belboid do keep up: the Brigadier's challenging politics have left the tired old categories of Tory and Liberal shattered in their furious wake. Such are his awesome powers of praxis that politics now means whatever he says it does and only that...behold the colossus that is Attica and tremble before his mighty paste table.

Cheers - Louis Macneice

p.s. oh and don't forget he's flogging some stuff on ebay so if you could see your way to sending him a few quid he can chalk it up as another success in the class struggle.

 

[The Black Hand]

Belboid do keep up: the Brigadier's challenging politics have left the tired old categories of Tory and Liberal shattered in their furious wake. Such are his awesome powers of praxis that politics now means whatever he says it does and only that...behold the colossus that is Attica and tremble before his mighty paste table.

Cheers - Louis Macneice

p.s. oh and don't forget he's flogging some stuff on ebay so if you could see your way to sending him a few quid he can chalk it up as another success in the class struggle.

You really have no point at all to your existence .

 

[butchersapron]

RIP thread. attica ruins yet another potentially interesting and usefull discussion.

 

[belboid]

Hypothetical bollocks doesn't get a reply.

nothing hypothetical is there Joe? Unless all your much vaunted anti-fascist work is only hypothetical....

 

[Louis MacNeice]

You really have no point at all to your existence .

I thought your post 55 on this thread was much better; any port in a storm eh?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice