Searchlight launch debate on anti fascism
- Thread starter The Black Hand
- Start date
dennisr
the acceptable face
But is it possible? I am struggling to think of examples of where asking capital to please be a bit nicer have actually been worth the bother.
Got a link?
dennisr
the acceptable face
shall we give it a try?
every time i see these issues raised they get an incredible response - tens of thousands have marched to stop various local nhs cuts. sections of the union movement have show overwhelming support for industrial action on the rare occasions when the union tops have shown a lead (sections of the working class who have not moved out of their shells in decades) - even the refinary dispute is an example - first strike in god knows how many years.
i see plenty of examples of local workplace disputes - when a decent leadership is in place - that gets solid support
yes, its possible (not that we have any other choice frankly...)
and I would agree - not by 'asking nicely' - reasonably - but not 'nicely' (thats the union bureaucrats illusion)
here, shame it doesn't include the welfare cuts, etc and one can tell it was a bit rushed out.
Over 700 sign May Manifesto Petition
http://www.johnmcdonnell.org.uk/
Over 700 people have now signed up to the May Manifesto petition.
If you have not already done so, you can sign up by emailing [email protected] with 'petition' in the subject line with your name and CLP or trade union. The petition states:
"We believe that Labour can win back the support of our people by adopting a new 2008 May Manifesto, which should include:
* Nailing the 10p tax mistake by the introduction of a fair tax system removing the low paid from taxation and ensuring the wealthiest and corporations pay their fair share
* An increase in the basic state pension, immediately restoring the link with earnings, lifting people off means tested benefits and providing free care for the elderly
* An immediate start on a large scale council house building programme and assistance for those facing repossession
* Immediate end to programme of local Post Office closures and liberalisation of postal services
* An end to the privatisation of our public services
* A new pay deal for public sector workers to protect their living standards and tackle low pay
* Abolishing tuition fees and restoring maintenance grants for all students
* Scrapping ID cards and abandoning 42 days detention
* Introduction of a trade union freedom bill and measures to protect temporary and agency workers
* Rejecting the proposals to renew Trident"
Over 700 sign May Manifesto Petition
http://www.johnmcdonnell.org.uk/
Over 700 people have now signed up to the May Manifesto petition.
If you have not already done so, you can sign up by emailing [email protected] with 'petition' in the subject line with your name and CLP or trade union. The petition states:
"We believe that Labour can win back the support of our people by adopting a new 2008 May Manifesto, which should include:
* Nailing the 10p tax mistake by the introduction of a fair tax system removing the low paid from taxation and ensuring the wealthiest and corporations pay their fair share
* An increase in the basic state pension, immediately restoring the link with earnings, lifting people off means tested benefits and providing free care for the elderly
* An immediate start on a large scale council house building programme and assistance for those facing repossession
* Immediate end to programme of local Post Office closures and liberalisation of postal services
* An end to the privatisation of our public services
* A new pay deal for public sector workers to protect their living standards and tackle low pay
* Abolishing tuition fees and restoring maintenance grants for all students
* Scrapping ID cards and abandoning 42 days detention
* Introduction of a trade union freedom bill and measures to protect temporary and agency workers
* Rejecting the proposals to renew Trident"
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Theres not a lot there I disagree with really.
dennisr
the acceptable face
more importantly though - we need to see practical examples - how disputes are won. Something more than a shopping list and 'vote for me" - it just does not wash any more.
Thats why I hold onto the relative importance of recent industrial and community battles - we all agree on most of the basic 'shopping list' of demands - but 'vote for me' isn't (rightly...) enough for people. Action speaks much louder than words.
more folk don't vote than vote for hard-right parties
Well, I am definitely of the opinion that (horizontal) organising in the workplace is to the advantage of everyone who is genuinely working-class (quite a good acid test of that, actually) and so that is where I personally devote most of my energy at the moment. However it's not going to win any ideological battles with the BNP or convert many people on the doorstep as far as I can see. It's an important part of the picture but not the broad vision of a re-enfranchised society that is actually needed.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
And they're absolutely free of state funding and state influence, too.*
*(the poster of this post may be utilising irony here)
This reads to me like a pointless shopping-list of things that are not going to happen in a million years without some major political upheaval and transfer of power away from current elites. The BNP have not just a list of things that people would like to see but a program that they (incorrectly) think will bring them about. What leftist equivalent is actually going to get people onboard?
dennisr
the acceptable face
I think the electoral growth of the old NF in the 70s-80s was cut across because a) the tories adopted many of their policies but just as importantly b) there was a series of major social struggles.
Re-enfranchising people is actually about connecting them back to the idea - they have their own power - as workers - and their own interests - as workers. Trade union and workplace movements are the best and most rapid learning experience of that as far as I can see
Ricky Tomlinson is probably an extreme example (but one you can se repeated again and again in small ways) - but he was still an NF supporter when he went into a dispute that led to his jailing for secondary picketing (the Shrewsbury 2 events) - the scales dropped from his eyes in the process
Trade union movements are so easily recuperated though. 
Another factor that worries me is that the managerial classes are much more sophisticated than previously - they have become expert frog-boilers, always on the advance but never quite provoking the sort of social conflict that could result in major gains for radical social movements. The BNP can capitalise on this because they are fundamentally advocating populist policies that are similar in nature to the mainstream of the dominant ideology - the only difference is that they are more extreme in their views. What is not happening is any other narrative of events gaining ground in any significant way.
Another factor that worries me is that the managerial classes are much more sophisticated than previously - they have become expert frog-boilers, always on the advance but never quite provoking the sort of social conflict that could result in major gains for radical social movements. The BNP can capitalise on this because they are fundamentally advocating populist policies that are similar in nature to the mainstream of the dominant ideology - the only difference is that they are more extreme in their views. What is not happening is any other narrative of events gaining ground in any significant way.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Not in cases where the union is moribund and the reps are so far up the management's arse that there's no point in approaching them. Electing anybody else is impossible due to entrenched apathy and anti-union mindedness from the majority of the workforce.
I've seen new people join unions then get put off them for life when the reps seem to be hand-in-glove with the HR dept when they have a grievance.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
These types have also now totally infested ourt trade unions (most unions now allow the bosses to join) so as to render them as incapable vehicles in which to mobile against those same managerial classes.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I think they're dead as any sort of progressive, reforming force - let alone revolutionary. When so many people's experience of unions is of them seemingly having the employers interests at heart rather than the members, what can you do?
dennisr
the acceptable face
kill yourself you tedious trolling cunt? - its just a suggestion like...
Looking at the BNP policies, about half of them are classic right-wing issues that most people are probably not that concerned about, or are at least amenable to being persuaded on - sustained defence spending, no more foreign aid, re-attachment to the commonwealth (like us kiwis want you back!) - but the rest are basically left issues - pensions, healthcare, environment, investment in transport etc etc. The BNP correctly state that current elite groups have no intention of doing anything about these issues, and that's obviously something that rings true for a lot of people - as well it might.
What sells the BNP point of view in my opinion is that it frames all of these questions oppositionally; the reason why pensions are poor is because all the money is spent on asylum seekers, and so on. Unless the left can not just puncture this rhetoric but really counter it with a description of society that better fits the everyday experience of working people they will continue to be wrong-footed by fascists.
What sells the BNP point of view in my opinion is that it frames all of these questions oppositionally; the reason why pensions are poor is because all the money is spent on asylum seekers, and so on. Unless the left can not just puncture this rhetoric but really counter it with a description of society that better fits the everyday experience of working people they will continue to be wrong-footed by fascists.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Good post.
A question: are the BNP in any way involving themselves in particular campaigns the way leftists obviously feel they should do? It seems to me that they are not, rather that they are offering an explanation of why these campaigns are rarely successful (or if they are are basically fighting a rearguard action), and then offering a (flawed) way out of this situation.
If this is the case (and I'm prepared to be corrected), isn't that something that leftists should do more of?
If this is the case (and I'm prepared to be corrected), isn't that something that leftists should do more of?
you've heard it all hear before, so apologies, but there has been a debate about all this on the letters pages of the Hackney Gazette over the last month. I won't cut and paste but all the letters have been put on the Hackney Independent website
http://www.hackneyindependent.org/letters_in_the_local_press/index.php
start with "Who's to Blame for the BNP" 25MAY08 and work up.
The respondent from Hope Not Hate is a bit of a dick - avoiding the argument and calling everyone Dave Spart etc ...
http://www.hackneyindependent.org/letters_in_the_local_press/index.php
start with "Who's to Blame for the BNP" 25MAY08 and work up.
The respondent from Hope Not Hate is a bit of a dick - avoiding the argument and calling everyone Dave Spart etc ...
The Black Hand
Unclean
Just a point - the BNP have a number of Front groups similar to what the SWP does.
ABEX - the ex-servicemens
They had a countryside one too looking to exploit foxhunting/foot and mouth etc issues dunno what it is now.
Barnbrook went to a 'No to ID' meeting and was humiliated...
Generally they do stuff they can control.
Searchlight will never get involved in a debate where
1. Their state links are placed open to scrutiny
2. Independent working class political alternatives are discussed
3. There is an honest assessment of the extent of the BNP vote
Trust me, i have tried to debate with these types- on the Lancaster Unity site for example- but they generally censor any critical posts made.
In a word- no, as Searchlight and allies only hear what they want to hear, there is little point in debating with them.
1. Their state links are placed open to scrutiny
2. Independent working class political alternatives are discussed
3. There is an honest assessment of the extent of the BNP vote
Trust me, i have tried to debate with these types- on the Lancaster Unity site for example- but they generally censor any critical posts made.
In a word- no, as Searchlight and allies only hear what they want to hear, there is little point in debating with them.
The Black Hand
Unclean
Well then, you are best served with not trying then.
in the meantime could you explain what 3. comprises of and what are the characteristics of an analysis that is not honest?
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