Sci Fi and Fantasy writing is not an excuse to be SHIT

[Chz]

Unfortunately all of those writers had one or two novels in them but most of them went on to write dozens.

Doesn't that cover most fantasy and about half of sci-fi? Even Orson Scott Card's guilty of padding out his series.

And then you have some authors who just don't know when the spark is gone. Larry Niven and Heinlein were both brilliant in their day, but they both shovelled out some really weak shit before they called it a day.

 

[treefrog]

I like George 'RR' Martin, exponent of the shocking idea that even fantasy novels require extensive research beforehand.

God yes, George RR Martin is great!

The characters aren't 2D! And the story is for adults, not weird 15 year olds with a dice fixation.

Kevin J Anderson needs to bleed for what he did to the Dune prequels though...

 

[Sunray]

Trans - my books are quality and damn those other publishers for lpacing inferior competitors in my path and lessening my sales.

Probably true, but no more or less true than any other media form these days, be that academic treatise, crime novel of reality TV show...besides there was shite literature around before capitalism...

No even slightly. She is probably the best Fantasy writer I've ever read, if a little off the wall at times, but in that statement she has a valid point.

If you want to read 10 (when I stopped reading) volume definition of the point, read David Eddings. Piers Anthony (apart from Battle Circle) will give you an abridge version of events.

 

[Cid]

I like George 'RR' Martin, exponent of the shocking idea that even fantasy novels require extensive research beforehand.

Indeed; this is why I have a soft spot for Pratchett and Tolkein... Tolkein creates a classical mythology, one very open to the kind of criticism Moorcock levels at it, but at the same time his brilliance is in the shear detail. He creates complex languages, societies and people. Yeah, he's the genesis of hero lit in many ways but he does it with style. Pratchett is, of course, on completely the other end of the scale but he covers everything from quantum physics to buddhist philosophy in his own way. At the same time his churning out of books ahas lead to some lacklustre efforts, I tend to have him as sort of easy holiday reading.

 

[toggle]

Doesn't that cover most fantasy and about half of sci-fi? Even Orson Scott Card's guilty of padding out his series.

And then you have some authors who just don't know when the spark is gone. Larry Niven and Heinlein were both brilliant in their day, but they both shovelled out some really weak shit before they called it a day.

there are very few authors that can produce an absolutely fantastic book every time, particularly when a lot of what we appreciate about a book is subjective. i'll forgive my favourite authors the occasional crap book, feists collaboration, for the first of the legends of the riftwar , Peter f hamilton for misspent youth (how many women, how many positions), steven king for the abysmal tommyknockers (although would probably be interesting as to what someone can fantaiise after that much coke), CJ cherryh's high style fantasy (thee and thou and 13 million fake celtic names). They have all written competently in most of their other work as far as I'm concerned.

there is stuff that is so bad as to completely put me off. Footfall, with the absolutely unbelievable level of racism, terry brooks, for thinking he could write another book that bad, let alone several series and anyone that thinks that setting a mills and boon novel in a castle or on a space ship will make me like it.

 

[Idaho]

Some contraversial ones from me. Ian Banks with his formula space opera, Phillip K Dick for being good at ideas but woeful at actually writing novels and those two idiots who attempted to write Dune novels (which I don't acknowledge as existing in my universe).

I will stand by Orson Scott Card though. He did a good series with Enders Saga.

 

[Calva dosser]

At the eternal risk of pedantism, Banksey writes as Iain M Banks when he's amusing himself with a space opera.

However, I really can't see, outside of the 'Culture' based stuff there's anything all that formulaic. OK he has a journalistic touch. Infact even in the culture based stuff, one could not compare 'Inversions' and 'Excision', I mean one concerns geopolitics on a hypothetical planet c1600 Earth time, the other, far in the future about artificial intelligences who fancy retiring.

One is in part 'The Name of the Rose', The other an exercise in proportionality.

I would like to discover some decently written pooey old genre stuff, but it is as difficult as getting a giggle out of Balzac. Or That South African woman.

 

[ICB]

at least Banks can write fairly well

Donaldson is terrible, really turgid and forever using stupid words in an attempt to appear clever or poetic or something

Feist is dire, fine until you're about 16 but unforgivable thereafter, Eddings' age limit is about 14. Never read any McCaffrey, Jordan or anything of that sort, one quick scan of a paragraph at random is usually enough to tell whether something will make me want to stick pins in my eyes.

LeGuin and Gene Wolfe are the best fantasy writers I've read. Most of the sci-fi in the Masterworks series is really good. Read a great short story called "Saucer full of loneliness" the other day, by the superbly named Theodore Sturgeon.

 

[Structaural]

Peter F Hamilton has to be included in any list of shit sci-fi authors. Nights Dawn Trilogy was ok in parts but I've never been able to finish any of his other books. They are like East Enders in space, but without the interesting characters

Word.
Sort of enjoyed Night Dawn but thought it was long-winded.
A mate lent me Pandora's Star. Jesus, really struggled to get through it - the man will use 2000 words when 20 will do, he needs a good editor, dull dialogue, far too many threads - I'd forgotten who half the people were by the end of the book, not particularly gifted at description - I got lost in space quite often.
And then when I'm finally looking forward to finishing the fucking thing I get to the end page and get a 'continued in Mortgage Payer 2[Judas Unchained]' MOTHERFUCKER! after 700 odd pages! CUNT. Is this mentioned anywhere other than the last page? NO, Did my mate mention it? NO, also a CUNT!

*grumble, grumble*

 

[Structaural]

At the eternal risk of pedantism, Banksey writes as Iain M Banks when he's amusing himself with a space opera.

However, I really can't see, outside of the 'Culture' based stuff there's anything all that formulaic. OK he has a journalistic touch. Infact even in the culture based stuff, one could not compare 'Inversions' and 'Excision', I mean one concerns geopolitics on a hypothetical planet c1600 Earth time, the other, far in the future about artificial intelligences who fancy retiring.

One is in part 'The Name of the Rose', The other an exercise in proportionality.

I would like to discover some decently written pooey old genre stuff, but it is as difficult as getting a giggle out of Balzac. Or That South African woman.

seen this:

a few notes on the culture

'The Culture, in its history and its on-going form, is an expression of the idea that the nature of space itself determines the type of civilisations which will thrive there.

The thought processes of a tribe, a clan, a country or a nation-state are essentially two-dimensional, and the nature of their power depends on the same flatness. Territory is all-important; resources, living-space, lines of communication; all are determined by the nature of the plane (that the plane is in fact a sphere is irrelevant here); that surface, and the fact the species concerned are bound to it during their evolution, determines the mind-set of a ground-living species. The mind-set of an aquatic or avian species is, of course, rather different.

Essentially, the contention is that our currently dominant power systems cannot long survive in space; beyond a certain technological level a degree of anarchy is arguably inevitable and anyway preferable.'

 

[Matt S]

Long live Kim Stanley Robinson!

 

[Structaural]

Word.
Sort of enjoyed Night Dawn but thought it was long-winded.
A mate lent me Pandora's Star. Jesus, really struggled to get through it - the man will use 2000 words when 20 will do, he needs a good editor, dull dialogue, far too many threads - I'd forgotten who half the people were by the end of the book, not particularly gifted at description - I got lost in space quite often.
And then when I'm finally looking forward to finishing the fucking thing I get to the end page and get a 'continued in Mortgage Payer 2[Judas Unchained]' MOTHERFUCKER! after 700 odd pages! CUNT. Is this mentioned anywhere other than the last page? NO, Did my mate mention it? NO, also a CUNT!

*grumble, grumble*

The sequel's even worse by all accounts. sod Hamilton. has Iain M Banks got a new book out by any chance?

 

[ChrisC]

I think as usual Tycho says it better than I could;

You know that has made my day. Thank you!

 

[ChrisC]

Peter F. Hamilton isn't bad. I liked his Second Chance at Eden short stories. Especially the novella in the book. A who done it in space around Jupiter on Eden a bio space station. Never guessed who done the murdering. Although after reading it and understanding the technology it becomes obvious.

Well done I thought.

 

[ChrisC]

The sequel's even worse by all accounts. sod Hamilton. has Iain M Banks got a new book out by any chance?

Word is, he's writing a new Culture book.

 

[Structaural]

Peter F. Hamilton isn't bad. I liked his Second Chance at Eden short stories. Especially the novella in the book. A who done it in space around Jupiter on Eden a bio space station. Never guessed who done the murdering. Although after reading it and understanding the technology it becomes obvious.

Well done I thought.

I enjoyed them actually, his editor needs to force him to write short stories - at all times

 

[DotCommunist]

To much Deus Ex in the conclusion of Nights Dawn and the commonwealth saga. still enjoyable reads though. Not shit

 

[Crispy]

for my sins

I have read all 3 novels written in the Halo universe. Good god, they suck so badly. 2/3rds by-the-numbers military bullshit, 1/3 scarcely researched science. My defence is that I was involved in an amateur game-making project to realise them. the guys responsible for these travesties of fiction have multiple books to their name. how?! HOW?!?!

 

[Structaural]

To much Deus Ex in the conclusion of Nights Dawn and the commonwealth saga. still enjoyable reads though. Not shit

Please tell me what happens at the end of Judas Thiungeybob - so I don't have to read it

 

[ChrisC]

Make sure you put in spoiler space, I'm going to read them as I have bought them.

 

[ChrisC]

for my sins

I have read all 3 novels written in the Halo universe. Good god, they suck so badly. 2/3rds by-the-numbers military bullshit, 1/3 scarcely researched science. My defence is that I was involved in an amateur game-making project to realise them. the guys responsible for these travesties of fiction have multiple books to their name. how?! HOW?!?!

Halo, who wrote that then?

 

[Structaural]

Make sure you put in spoiler space, I'm going to read them as I have bought them.

Sod it, I just ordered Judas Unchained from Amazon. I need to know what happens now so I'll hack my way through once more.

Hamilton reminds me of Robert Jordan a bit. Likes to write doorstops, first books are excellent, but then you get used to his style and they seem repetitive and derivative of his previous works. I gave up with Jordan after book 4 of the Wheel of Endless Fucking Time.

I read 'Not a Country for Old Men' straight after and I finished it within 2 hours but it was quite refreshing after Pandora's Star. Extremely economical with the text, pretty dark and a good little yarn. Reminded me of Jim Harrison. Anyway fuck all to do with sci-fi....

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I like Hamilton, but he really does have far too much Deus Ex in his books.

Nights dawn trillogy : Deus Ex
Fallen Dragon : Deus Ex

Judas Unchained is one of the few ones that doesnt' have a deus ex to finish it all off, however the same type of role is carried out a hundred times in the book, the SI, the Farie types, the Barsoomians etc. Higher figures that deign to swoop down and fix it all.

My issues with him are more logic based than anything else. Sometimes he just stops trying to be sensible.

 

[bmd]

Stephen R Lawhead. Writes awful Arthurian fantasy.

I will weep no more for the lost, asleep in their water graves. I have no more tears for my youth in the temple of the brindled ox. Life is strong in me and I will not grieve for what was or might have been. Mine is a different path and I must follow where it leads.

But I look out from my high window onto fields of corn ripening to the scythe. I see them rippling like a golden sea, and in the rustling of the dry leaves I hear again the voices of my people calling to me across the years. I close my eyes and I see them now as they were from my earliest memories. They stand before me and I enter once more that glad time when we were young and the cataclysm had not come upon us before Throm appeared with dire prophecies burning on his lips.

It was a time of peace in all Atlantis. The gods were content and the people prospered. We children played beneath Bel's golden disc and our limbs grew strong and brown; we sang our songs to fair Cybel, the ever-changing, to grant us dreams of joy; and we lived out our days in a land rich and with every comfort, thinking it would always be that way.

The voices of the departed speak: "Tell our story," they say. "It is worthy to be remembered."

And so I take my pen and begin to write...

And the voices of the departed spoke "on second thoughts...".

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The worst SF/F story ever written:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eye_of_Argon

Its so bad that they have reading contests at SF conventions. The goal of the contest is to read the most words without actually laughing out loud.

 

[Structaural]

Stephen R Lawhead. Writes awful Arthurian fantasy.



And the voices of the departed spoke "on second thoughts...".

That's bad writing.

 

[jæd]

Stephen Baxter & Arthur C Clarke's collaboration... The first book (Times Eye) is average, but with a disappointing ending... But the second (Sunstorm) is dire... I should have be warned from Clarke's previous collabs, but it was all going so well...

 

[Idaho]

I read that Night's Dawn series on the back of finishing the David Brin's Heavens Reach series. In some ways the latter is more knockabout and almost a kids story, but in other ways it is truer science fiction. Both enjoyable of course, but not what I would term 'hard SF'.

 

[david dissadent]

It could be a hanging offence in this thread but Ive never really gotten Assimov. Passible entertainment when I was 13 and there was no internet but boaring as mud the time I turned 18.

Stephen King is another whos fantasy efforts are pretty weak IMHO. Although he did one with a werewolf and different worlds as a collaboration that I remember liking. Mind you alot of his 'horror' was snoozefest stuff too.

 

[MikeMcc]

I like Hamilton, but he really does have far too much Deus Ex in his books.

Nights dawn trillogy : Deus Ex
Fallen Dragon : Deus Ex

Judas Unchained is one of the few ones that doesnt' have a deus ex to finish it all off, however the same type of role is carried out a hundred times in the book, the SI, the Farie types, the Barsoomians etc. Higher figures that deign to swoop down and fix it all.

My issues with him are more logic based than anything else. Sometimes he just stops trying to be sensible.

I liked the most of the books that I have read (Pandora's Star, Judas Unchained). He does have some annoying habits, I don't really want to know all the model numbers of all the equipment used, I don't need to know that all of the roads are 'enzyme-bonded concrete', what ever that is. His ideas on the alien were good and I genuinely felt that the alien was novel.

I've also read Mis-Spent Youth, and I must admit thet I can't think of another book where I've WANTED all sorts of mis-fortune to clobber all of the main characters, they are so un-likeable. I could probably associate with the rejuvenated guy even though he was a bit of an arse. His son and the girls involved I would gladly batter with a cricket bat, they are so petulant, grasping, irritating and just plain, fucking, annoying.

I'm intrigued to see where the new series will lead for the Confederation though.