Schwarzenegger: a bigger twat by the day

[Fong]

Nice try at switching the basis for the argument. Close but no cigar.

It isn't about campaigning on a ticket of "no death penallty", the argument was about the absolute power of the governor to gift clemency to whoever he wishes regardless of what ticket he came to power on.

You are talking about a country that has an electoral college, which basically means, they 'hope' that the 'executive' (in this case) does what they tell them to do by election.

On paper it is very easy for the Electoral College to go against the vote, I expect if they actually did go against the vote the consequences would be quite profound.

In much the same way, its easy to look at the writing on the page and say, but it says this, but when you take it in the context of how it is applied and used, well it isn't so clear. It isn't enough to say, oh but it says he can do what he likes. When the reality is not so simple. There are expectations here that a couple of people have explained.

You want to wave them away by resorting to what is written on the page, but america doesn't seem to work that way. Bizzarre as that is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You are talking about a country that has an electoral college, which basically means, they 'hope' that the 'executive' (in this case) does what they tell them to do by election.

But in this case we're talking specifically about an executive power of the Governor of California that is independent of whatever ticket the Governor was elected on. I can understand that the people of California might wish that the Governor follows a consensus, but if they didn't wish for the Governorship to have such an executive power residing with it, they could easily have removed that power. They haven't.

On paper it is very easy for the Electoral College to go against the vote, I expect if they actually did go against the vote the consequences would be quite profound.

I understand that. Gray Davis's recall show how easily what even perceived mistakes (the whole power-outage fiasco) can ruin political careers.

In much the same way, its easy to look at the writing on the page and say, but it says this, but when you take it in the context of how it is applied and used, well it isn't so clear. It isn't enough to say, oh but it says he can do what he likes. When the reality is not so simple. There are expectations here that a couple of people have explained.

Again, I understand that, and I understand that in the context of granting clemency, Arnie was about as likely to give a black man convicted of murder a pardon as he would be to give Pope Bendict oral relief.

You want to wave them away by resorting to what is written on the page, but america doesn't seem to work that way. Bizzarre as that is.

I don't want anything waved away.

I think you're missing my point.

My point is that Rogue Yam is stating that because Arnie didn't campaign for the state governorship of California on a "clemency" or "no death penalty" ticket, then he has NO scope WHATSOEVER to exercise that executive power.

What I'm betting is that Arnie will exercise his power of clemency at some time during his Governorship, and that it will be a political exercise, pardoning a campaign contributor who has been caught with his fingers in the moneybox, or a fellow Californian pol who's done something naughty.
I'm interested in what Rogue Yam's argument would be in such a case. Will he still insist that if the Governor wasn't elected on a "clemency" ticket then he shouldn't exercise that power? Myself, I'm willing to bet that Mr. Yam will change his tune whenever it becomes politically expedient.

 

[Fong]

What I'm betting is that Arnie will exercise his power of clemency at some time during his Governorship, and that it will be a political exercise, pardoning a campaign contributor who has been caught with his fingers in the moneybox, or a fellow Californian pol who's done something naughty.
I'm interested in what Rogue Yam's argument would be in such a case. Will he still insist that if the Governor wasn't elected on a "clemency" ticket then he shouldn't exercise that power? Myself, I'm willing to bet that Mr. Yam will change his tune whenever it becomes politically expedient.

I think you are slightly confused between Pardons and Clemency.

1,322 Pardons since 1967 (inc 3 from Arnie)
6 Acts of Clemency from 1972 (1979 was first execution)

The two are quite seperate and wielded in quite different ways.

It is unlikely that Arnie will commit any acts of Clemency unless there is a VERY legiimate reason, such as a mentally disabled person who shouldn't really be there.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think you are slightly confused between Pardons and Clemency.

1,322 Pardons since 1967 (inc 3 from Arnie)
6 Acts of Clemency from 1972 (1979 was first execution)

The two are quite seperate and wielded in quite different ways.

It is unlikely that Arnie will commit any acts of Clemency unless there is a VERY legiimate reason, such as a mentally disabled person who shouldn't really be there.

Fair enough.

 

[rogue yam]

It isn't about campaigning on a ticket of "no death penallty", the argument was about the absolute power of the governor to gift clemency to whoever he wishes regardless of what ticket he came to power on.

The issue is respect for democratic institutions. You fail to understand this because you have none.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The issue is respect for democratic institutions. You fail to understand this because you have none.

Mmm, care to elucidate?

Well, I actually mean "care to try and elucidate", as you're talking rubbish so won't be able to.

As has been noted, all you are able to do is snipe, whine and make claims and comments you can't support.

So come on, crack on and tell me which democratic institutions my nation lacks.

 

[nino_savatte]

The issue is respect for democratic institutions. You fail to understand this because you have none.

Not a very good comeback. Have you got anything else or is this it?

What do you mean by "democratic institution" or for that matter what is "democracy? If your answer to the last question is "What we have in America", then you are not only wrong but delusional.

 

[untethered]

As an opponent of the death penalty, I think this whole clemency business has been a big distraction from the central issue, which is simply whether it's morally acceptable to execute people.

I can appreciate the position of people that will try to pull any stunt to save a man's life. I won't criticise that. But getting into debates about "redemption" either in principle or around a specific case tacitly acknowledge that executing prisoners (ie. killing people when it's avoidable) is fine unless they can prove that they're worthy of life at the whim of the state and its populace. Sod that.

I don't criticise Schwarzenegger over this particular decision because I can see the situation that he's in. I criticise him for supporting the whole system. If he'd granted clemency to Williams that would have been a good thing, but the only way he could have justified it would have been to attack the whole system and pledge himself to do everything in his power to abolish the Californian death penalty. If that means granting clemency to every prisoner and facing the wrath of the electorate, fine. But it's obviously not where he's coming from, so in many respects this particular case is little more than a sad and tragic detail.

 

[Isambard]

little more than a sad and tragic detail.

A man killed for crimes that he had long repented and worked to prevent happening again?

 

[smash_g8]

?????

A man killed for crimes that he had long repented and worked to prevent happening again?

I think you will find that Tookie never repented for his crimes. This was because he would never admit to having killed these people in the first place. As he said " How can I repent for something I have not done"

This was also one of the reasons that Arnold refused to grant clemency to him because he had not repented

 

[untethered]

A man killed for crimes that he had long repented and worked to prevent happening again?

He didn't admit to or apologise for the crimes of which he was convicted and sentenced to death. That was the principal reason for denial of clemency.

Please read what I've written on this thread, and most especially read Schwarzenegger's full decision before you continue to bore us with your ignorance about this particular case.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He didn't admit to or apologise for the crimes of which he was convicted and sentenced to death. That was the principal reason for denial of clemency.

Please read what I've written on this thread, and most especially read Schwarzenegger's full decision before you continue to bore us with your ignorance about this particular case.

That's what I love about your posts, your humility and absolute lack of condescension!

 

[untethered]

That's what I love about your posts, your humility and absolute lack of condescension!

I aim to please.

I'm happy for people to come to contrary conclusions, but not when they're evidently lacking knowledge of the undisputed central facts of a case.

 

[Isambard]

The issue is respect for democratic institutions. You fail to understand this because you have none.

Like democratically elected city councillors in Graz who no longer want to have a stadium named after a man whose actions ie executing people don't sit with local opinion?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Then, there is the accusation of corruption:

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2005/Schwarzenegger-$1M-Conflict14jul05.htm

 

[Fong]

Like democratically elected city councillors in Graz who no longer want to have a stadium named after a man whose actions ie executing people don't sit with local opinion?

This is more of you proving what little you know.

There was a petition set up by an independant person online, nothing to do with City Councillors. It had a few signatures, fine no one is disputing that.

Also it was Arnie himself who asked them to stop using his name as a tourist attraction for their city, including the stadium.

So tecnically, in the last two posts, you have failed miserably to post anything that is correct.

Will go for third time lucky? will you bother to read up a bit and find out what is going on first? Will Marsha marry Ted?

 

[Isambard]

nothing to do with City Councillors.

A motion in Graz City Council from Green councillors that was carried by a majority.
Here's the report from Austrian Broadcasting Corporation:

http://news.orf.at/051219-94612/



Correction, "Tookey" couldn't have repented as he denied the crimes, correct. But here's some evidence he was a reformed charachter and how the trial was arguably not fair:

Former gang leader Stanley Williams was sentenced to death in 1981 for a total of four murders carried out in 1979. While on death row Stanley Williams completely transformed himself, repudiating his past acts and violent lifestyle and dedicating himself to educating young people about the dangers of gang life.

Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen said:

“This is yet another sad milestone in the history of the US justice system.

“Tookie Williams’ violent past was well known but he had become a textbook version of rehabilitation and his execution was a travesty of justice.”

Stanley Williams, one of the founders of the notorious "Crips" street gang in Los Angeles, California in the early 1970s underwent what he describes as a "redemptive transition" in prison, renouncing gang life and working to educate young people about its dangers.

Since coming out of solitary confinement, his behaviour record in prison had been exemplary.

He wrote a series of children's books about the dangers of gang life, was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize on several occasions, and in 2005 received a US presidential service award from the President's Council on Service and Civic Participation.

Stanley Williams had also always maintained his innocence of the crimes for which he was executed.

According to his clemency petition, the case against him rested on testimony from accomplices in the crime and informants who were facing imprisonment or the death penalty for various offences, but who all received reduced sentences or freedom in exchange for their testimony.

There were also concerns about racial discrimination within the trial process itself.

Williams was tried in an area where only one per cent of the jury pool was black. The trial prosecutor removed all Afro-Americans from the jury and on one occasion compared Williams - who sometimes appeared in court in shackles - to a Bengal tiger.

In January 2005 California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger announced plans to remodel the focus of the prison system away from punishment towards rehabilitation.

In its 2004 ruling, the California Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal said that Stanley Williams’ "good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate" for an act of executive clemency.

 

[Streathamite]

The issue is respect for democratic institutions. You fail to understand this because you have none.

hahahahaHAHAHAHA!!!!! oh yes, all US 'institutions' are soooo much more democratic than ones in europe, aren't they?
and the level of participation so much higher....
were you born a complete idiot, or did you have to work quite hard at it?
btw - find out what 'democratic' means, for god's sake

 

[untethered]

I find it hard to see what Amnesty mean when they say "his execution was a travesty of justice" unless they mean that every execution is a travesty of justice. Of course, Amnesty oppose the death penalty, so are they implying that some executions might be justified if the convict admits their guilt and is remorseless?

I'm not interested in finding textbook examples of rehabilitation. I'm interested in establishing the principle that civilised states don't execute their citizens in cold blood, no matter what they've done and what their subsequent point of view on it is.

 

[Isambard]

I think Amnesty is against the death penalty, full stop.
But obviously cases like this one where there are serious questiopns about the trial and the executed is a reformed charachter are better "publicity wise" - can't think of a better phrase, sorry.

 

[untethered]

I think it's counter-productive. It just reinforces the idea that some people deserve to be executed and others (unfair trials, reformed on death row) don't. What kind of moral progress is that furthering?

 

[smash_g8]

A motion in Graz City Council from Green councillors that was carried by a majority.
Here's the report from Austrian Broadcasting Corporation:

http://news.orf.at/051219-94612/



Correction, "Tookey" couldn't have repented as he denied the crimes, correct. But here's some evidence he was a reformed charachter and how the trial was arguably not fair:

which is one reason why Arnold did not grant clemency, he never showed remorse for the muders

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookiewilliamsvictims.html

Why, I wonder was it just Tookie that all the rich and famous turned up for? Why was Jamie Fox who campaigned a lot for Tookie, out at a Hollywood party the night of his death. Why has their not been a thread started about the latest to be executed?
Why are the rich and famous liberals not doing the same for this guy

Clarence Ray Allen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Ray_Allen

Is it because it's not trendy enough for the actors and singers of Hollywood?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hmmm, let's see.

The name is "smash-g8", which may lead us to believe that this poster is one of them dirty hippies, and yet that poster talks about "rich and famous liberals", and about "trendy...Hollywood".

Some mixed signals there.

If the spelling were a bit worse I'd think that a certain putative resident of the state of Oklahoma was making a comeback.

 

[Isambard]

he never showed remorse for the muders

Which he said he didn't commit and was convicted of in a flawed trial.


@ Untethered, see your reasoning. The tactics aren't mine but seem to be Amnesty's, just trying to try and explain.

 

[nino_savatte]

Hmmm, let's see.

The name is "smash-g8", which may lead us to believe that this poster is one of them dirty hippies, and yet that poster talks about "rich and famous liberals", and about "trendy...Hollywood".

Some mixed signals there.

If the spelling were a bit worse I'd think that a certain putative resident of the state of Oklahoma was making a comeback.

It's the spelling that's the giveaway for me.

Then on the other hand......

 

[T & P]

Now it turns that Arnie has been illegally driving a motorbike for many years...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4601822.stm

Somehow I don't think his punishment will be too severe...