Scary stuff from The S*n bulletin board :-(

[KeyboardJockey]

Sorry I'm bored of you now.

bye

 

[kyser_soze]

Obviously not aware that there have been Christians in india longer than in England...

British colonialism built churches all around the world and converted millions to christianity and you can see that from South America, to Africa, to Asia and Australia and the USA.

Not the only person on this thread with a weird notion of the history of Christian expansion around the world either...

BTW, who is this 'simon foster'?

 

[liampreston]

I went to a working man's club in Bury with some mates to watch a Utd match, and trust me, outside of the leftie bubble, these kind of opinions are very common. I always have Bluetooth turned on my phone, and picked up names like "White Power" and "England White4Eva". Around me blokes would discuss the latest goings on with "those Pakis" and the like. I agree with one of the early posts here, if you listen it's increasingly common to hear "the blacks are alright but those Muslims..." both at that venue and here at work.

The cause of this prejudice can be discussed to the hills. What we need is to discuss the solution.

 

[Andy the Don]

The cause of this prejudice can be discussed to the hills. What we need is to discuss the solution.

Unfortunately many on the left have no solution apart from to call those with a bigoted attitude racist.

Racism should be easy to combat it is a combination of ignorance & fear which can be beaten by knowledge & understanding..(fuck me I sound like some hippy, off to knit Jesus sandals out of tofu..)

 

[liampreston]

Unfortunately many on the left have no solution apart from to call those with a bigoted attitude racist.



You got that right. I love how at every election count I've been to, the far right candidates have stood stock still whilst the leftists have yelped "NAZI!" and the like as though such reactions are strong enough tools against them.

I hope you're not wearing socks with those sandals.

 

[nino_savatte]

Unfortunately this could become a major social and political issue in England. It could last for generations, just as hatred and fear of Catholics once did. Everything else would be pushed into a corner by racialised political blocs. Not meaning tomorrow, but maybe twenty or thirty years hence.

In the meantime, don't much like this sort of thing either:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/17/nislam117.xml

Maybe we should ban all Muslims from entering the country just to please our bigoted Sun readers - eh?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Maybe we should ban all Muslims from entering the country just to please our bigoted Sun readers - eh?

Or better than that maybe we should promote the idea of progressive islam and sideline the extremists and acknowledge that there is a problem with the rapid rise in the number of muslim citizens and that there must be more effort made at integration.

Both sides of the argument need to induldge in a bit of give and take.

 

[nino_savatte]

Or better than that maybe we should promote the idea of progressive islam and sideline the extremists and acknowledge that there is a problem with the rapid rise in the number of muslim citizens and that there must be more effort made at integration.

Both sides of the argument need to induldge in a bit of give and take.

It isn't for 'us' to promote anything with regards to Islam. That's for them to decide. Besides, anyone would think that Islam had a monopoly on extremism. I do get rather fed up with this one-sided attitude to religious extremism. All religions stink and all have the capacity for extremism...even Buddhism has its extremists.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It isn't for 'us' to promote anything with regards to Islam. That's for them to decide. Besides, anyone would think that Islam had a monopoly on extremism. I do get rather fed up with this one-sided attitude to religious extremism. All religions stink and all have the capacity for extremism...even Buddhism has its extremists.

I agree that all religions have the capacity for extremism but I disagree with you when you say it is up to the muslim community to do something. There are a lot of things especially with regards to oppression of women and cultural stuff that is bugger all to to with the faith itself being used to oppress and indoctrinate then it is something that we have to be concerned with.

What worries me is that if the state / community takes too much of a hands off attitude then it will just stoke the fires.

Other religions that arrived from overseas / after a long break / were previously seen as promoting the idea of an alien theocracy made accomodations with the secular state and the community and have been mostly accepted.

This was done by educating religious leaders in the UK and an acceptance that the 'law of the land is the law.'

 

[nino_savatte]

I agree that all religions have the capacity for extremism but I disagree with you when you say it is up to the muslim community to do something. There are a lot of things especially with regards to oppression of women and cultural stuff that is bugger all to to with the faith itself being used to oppress and indoctrinate then it is something that we have to be concerned with.

What worries me is that if the state / community takes too much of a hands off attitude then it will just stoke the fires.

Other religions that arrived from overseas / after a long break / were previously seen as promoting the idea of an alien theocracy made accomodations with the secular state and the community and have been mostly accepted.

This was done by educating religious leaders in the UK and an acceptance that the 'law of the land is the law.'

What you are proposing would the same as if Islam insisted that Xtianity became more 'progressive' (surely a non-sequitir as far as religion is concerned). Islam isn't the only system that oppresses women; our late western capitalist society also oppresses women; it converts women into commodities...that's hardly progressive but that is the nature of patriarchy; and Judaism, Xtianity, Hinduism and Islam are all patriarchal in orientation.

These ideas of Otherness and difference have been in circulation for ages. In the 1890's, it was the Jews who were accused of not integrating and in the 1950's, 60's and 70's it was the turn of Blacks and Asians.

Communities aren't formed overnight, they take years, even decades to come together.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What you are proposing would the same as if Islam insisted that Xtianity became more 'progressive' (surely a non-sequitir as far as religion is concerned). Islam isn't the only system that oppresses women; our late western capitalist society also oppresses women; it converts women into commodities...

Doesn't stone them to death though does it?

that's hardly progressive but that is the nature of patriarchy; and Judaism, Xtianity, Hinduism and Islam are all patriarchal in orientation.

But Xtianity, Judaism and Hinduism et al do have established progressive and equally important female friendly movements which are accepted by all except the extremists or ultras. What worries me is that progressive muslims are being sidelined by groups who see MAB, MPAC etc as the whole voice of Islam in the UK.

These ideas of Otherness and difference have been in circulation for ages. In the 1890's, it was the Jews who were accused of not integrating and in the 1950's, 60's and 70's it was the turn of Blacks and Asians.

Agreed that this has been the case but there is a similarity with militant Islam and militant Catholicism. Neither Jews, Hindus or black Christians wanted to overthrow the state and damage and kill people nor had this pov in any significant amount of its adherents . Its a big difference.

Militant Catholicism pined for the reconversion of England for years in a similar way that militant Islam pines for the conversion of England to Islam.

BTW I'm well aware that not all Islam is of the same flavour of the nutters. I'd rather have beena Jew in Al Andalus than living under Spanish Catholic rule. This progressive current does exist in Islam and I think that it ought to be backed and promoted.

Communities aren't formed overnight, they take years, even decades to come together.

Agree with that as well but I think that we should help change on it's way.

 

[nino_savatte]

Doesn't stone them to death though does it?


But Xtianity, Judaism and Hinduism et al do have established progressive and equally important female friendly movements which are accepted by all except the extremists or ultras. What worries me is that progressive muslims are being sidelined by groups who see MAB, MPAC etc as the whole voice of Islam in the UK.


Agreed that this has been the case but there is a similarity with militant Islam and militant Catholicism. Neither Jews, Hindus or black Christians wanted to overthrow the state and damage and kill people nor had this pov in any significant amount of its adherents . Its a big difference.

Militant Catholicism pined for the reconversion of England for years in a similar way that militant Islam pines for the conversion of England to Islam.

BTW I'm well aware that not all Islam is of the same flavour of the nutters. I'd rather have beena Jew in Al Andalus than living under Spanish Catholic rule. This progressive current does exist in Islam and I think that it ought to be backed and promoted.



Agree with that as well but I think that we should help change on it's way.

You keep making value judgements that are based on cultural relativism and the cases of extremely oppressive regimes. What makes you think that there are no progressive forces within Islam? There are.

Islam Karimov boils his opponents alive. Uzbekistan is not an Islamic state nor is a theocracy, it's just and repressive and cruel regime.

Agreed that this has been the case but there is a similarity with militant Islam and militant Catholicism. Neither Jews, Hindus or black Christians wanted to overthrow the state and damage and kill people nor had this pov in any significant amount of its adherents . Its a big difference.

So are you saying that Protestantism doesn't have its militant elements? How about the LOL (Loyal Orange Order) and the rest of the Proddy alphabet gang? What about the wide variety of Protestant nutters in the US?

Militant Catholicism pined for the reconversion of England for years in a similar way that militant Islam pines for the conversion of England to Islam.

One can pine, it doesn't mean that owt is going to happen. I don't believe that there is some major Islamic force whose raison d'etre is to convert England (wither the rest of the UK?) to Islam...that sounds like a smear to me.

During the 19th and early 20th century, Xtianity was at the forefront of forced conversions to its faith. Hardly anything has changed and it still does all that it can to convert folk through the use of lies and scare tactics.

No one is innocent...as Ronnie Biggs might have put it.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You keep making value judgements that are based on cultural relativism and the cases of extremely oppressive regimes. What makes you think that there are no progressive forces within Islam? There are.
.

I know there are progressive forces within Islam its just that I believe that the state should favour these progressive forces over the conservative ones. The state has done this with Christianity.

Islam Karimov boils his opponents alive. Uzbekistan is not an Islamic state nor is a theocracy, it's just and repressive and cruel regime.
.

Karimov is just a despot end of story.

So are you saying that Protestantism doesn't have its militant elements? How about the LOL (Loyal Orange Order) and the rest of the Proddy alphabet gang? What about the wide variety of Protestant nutters in the US?
.

I didn't deny that prods had their own nutters.

One can pine, it doesn't mean that owt is going to happen. I don't believe that there is some major Islamic force whose raison d'etre is to convert England (wither the rest of the UK?) to Islam...that sounds like a smear to me.
.

No but its a loud current similar to that which was in Catholicism in the past. Its not a smear there are Islamic groups who want to see such thing happen though these need to be sidelined and dealt with.

During the 19th and early 20th century, Xtianity was at the forefront of forced conversions to its faith. Hardly anything has changed and it still does all that it can to convert folk through the use of lies and scare tactics.
.

No argument there.

No one is innocent...as Ronnie Biggs might have put it.

As I said on another thread all hands are tainted.

 

[nino_savatte]

I know there are progressive forces within Islam its just that I believe that the state should favour these progressive forces over the conservative ones. The state has done this with Christianity.

Karimov is just a despot end of story.

I didn't deny that prods had their own nutters.



No but its a loud current similar to that which was in Catholicism in the past. Its not a smear there are Islamic groups who want to see such thing happen though these need to be sidelined and dealt with.

No argument there.


As I said on another thread all hands are tainted.

The state should be secular...if there should be a state at all, there is. Blair's insane desire to promote the idea of faith-based schools has reversed the slow secularisation of British society imv.

Just look at what's happening in India: the Muslim minority is constantly under attack from Hindu nationalists...but it hardly ever gets a mention in this country. International news stories have been gradually replaced with celebrity gossip, trivia, moral panics and healthscares. Which leads me on to the role of the media in all of this: there is a tendency to portray Islam as a backward culture and to exaggerate the scope and nature of extremism within Islam while, at the same time, ignoring the extremism within other faiths.

I think that extremists are in the minority within Islam, as they are in other faiths...though, the Protestant extremism in the US is very, very frightening and equally as bad as Islamic fundamentalist extremism...as is are the Zionist fanatics in Israel.

Religion kills, ban it all.

 

[bluestreak]

racism has always been mainstream. in my experience a vocal quarter are racist shitfucks with no more right to live on god's clean earth than a weasel, and dammit they're vocal about it. a quarter are like us, good decent human beings who won't shut up about how goddam right we are, and te rest offer a quiet medium. socialism is still more popular i reckon. remember signal to noise. IME racists are a lot louder and spread themselves around a lot more than nice people.

 

[likesfish]

bnp and there ilk are vocal on the net regularly post on the squaddies rumor site and get told do one rapidly

 

[tarannau]

To be fair, the interweb tends to bring out the worst gobshite in people. It's amazing how much unbalanced crap people can come out with when they're essentially anonymous.

I think there's a fair of racism in everyday life btw. Running pubs in a number of dodgy areas you generally found that people's racism came out when they began to trust you, when they thought that you were 'one of them.' Bulletin boards demolish that caution - it's no wonder that so many wankers apparently come out of the woodwork.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

racism has always been mainstream. in my experience a vocal quarter are racist shitfucks with no more right to live on god's clean earth than a weasel, and dammit they're vocal about it. a quarter are like us, good decent human beings who won't shut up about how goddam right we are, and te rest offer a quiet medium. socialism is still more popular i reckon. remember signal to noise. IME racists are a lot louder and spread themselves around a lot more than nice people.

Good point. Its just that they seem a whole lot louder more bolder than they used to.

 

[ViolentPanda]

All the other posters here. And your mum.

And your mum too.

And her best friend big Gladys.

 

[ViolentPanda]

BTW, who is this 'simon foster'?

Isn't he that dickhead who went to Gloucester in a shower of rain?

 

[audiotech]

Good point. Its just that they seem a whole lot louder more bolder than they used to.

Only on anonymous bulletin boards (well some ).

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think that extremists are in the minority within Islam, as they are in other faiths...though, the Protestant extremism in the US is very, very frightening and equally as bad as Islamic fundamentalist extremism...as is are the Zionist fanatics in Israel.

Religion kills, ban it all.

I agree that the number of nutters in Islam is not anything approaching a majority but they are just as over vocal as the white racists. They are definitely punching above their weight. I just think more should be done to sideline the fanatics, making alliances with progressive muslims is one way that this could be achieved.

The prod fanatics are as dangerous as jihadists in their own way as they control the levers of power in the US.

You mentioned the situation with Muslims in India it is featured in the British press but not inthe mass press like the sun.

I wouldn't ban religion, there is good in it as well as shite.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Only on anonymous bulletin boards (well some ).

Yup. BTW when used to drink in the same pub as a lot of 'the master race' I couldnt' help notice what piss poor specimens of humanity they were 'I've got a beer gut and half a brain and I know how to use it'

It is just depressing seeing so much of it and so little of it being challenged in a positive way.

 

[Cobbles]

"that viewpoint is only the majority in rare places. most people are rightfully shocked by that sort of attitude, even if they don't challenge it.

So how many copies of the Sun are sold on a daily basis as opposed to the Socialist "worker"? (an oxymoron if ever there was one)