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Scargill speaks at Climate Camp

what a stupid thing to say but then you are a nasty peice of work ..

almost everything scargill said and did was correct .. the govt DID close done all the mines AND it was a fucking stupid thing to do ..
 
durruti02 said:
Why CCS is not the solution: Carbon capture technology will come too late to save our climate. While plans for demonstration facilities are under way, there are still unresolved CO2 storage issues. Most worryingly it is believed that the earliest CCS might become feasible for commercial scale use is 2030, and this will be too late to avoid catastrophic climate change (IPCC special report on CCS). This is why we are taking radical action now.
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sorry, but this is utter bollocks.

'it is believed...' believed by who? a few naive hippies writing a pamphlet? if you're going to write a pamphlet aimed at winning over workers in a coal fired power plant to your side of the arguement, at least base your arguement on facts, and provide sources for those facts otherwise it basically nullifies everything else that you say.

essentially I think whoever wrote this article has misinterpreted something potentially saying the ccs won't be commercially viable for 30 years, with something not being technically viable for 30 years. Commercially viable is a very different concept as the viability or otherwise can be changed by legislation, higher carbon prices, regulation requiring it to be fitted, etc etc.

CCS is technically viable now, using existing technologies, the UK government is even funding a small scale commercial pilot of the technology with bidding opened this summer, and the EU committed to funding 12 commercial scale CCS test plants by 2015, and requiring CCS on all new build coal fired stations by 2020.

CCS is technologically feasible. A fully integrated demonstration plant could be built using existing technologies that are economic under certain conditions. It is not easy to estimate the costs of CCS technologies, because they are sensitive to assumptions about the ‘business as usual’ scenario, as well as to and carbon and fuel prices.
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[source = environment agency]
 
free spirit said:
sorry, but this is utter bollocks.

'it is believed...' believed by who? a few naive hippies writing a pamphlet? if you're going to write a pamphlet aimed at winning over workers in a coal fired power plant to your side of the arguement, at least base your arguement on facts, and provide sources for those facts otherwise it basically nullifies everything else that you say.

essentially I think whoever wrote this article has misinterpreted something potentially saying the ccs won't be commercially viable for 30 years, with something not being technically viable for 30 years. Commercially viable is a very different concept as the viability or otherwise can be changed by legislation, higher carbon prices, regulation requiring it to be fitted, etc etc.

CCS is technically viable now, using existing technologies, the UK government is even funding a small scale commercial pilot of the technology with bidding opened this summer, and the EU committed to funding 12 commercial scale CCS test plants by 2015, and requiring CCS on all new build coal fired stations by 2020.

[source = environment agency]
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you may be right .. i think i read they using it in the US already?? anyone
 
Sadly I think this is all a bit of side show. My feeling is that this government and very likely all future goverments will be commited to a mix of Nuclear and renewable.

My housemate is a proper flag waver for the Nuclear industry (which he works in) and spends an awful lot of time trying to convince me that Nuclear is the way forward as in it's current form (in this country) it is very very safe. The major problem we have at the moment is waste disposal, but he argues the waste is far far less than gas, coal and oil.

He is also very keen on this new technology which is fusion instead of fission which we have at the moment. He believes fusion will eliminate the waste problem entirely. However we are probably still 30 odd years away from a working reactor.

So in the meantime build some new reactors with current technology which can be upgraded at a later stage, which is pretty much what the gov are doing now it seems.

I'm yet to be convinced by this argument but if a lowly worker can put a decent arguement together I imagine the professional lobbyists at Westminster are putting a very convincing argument to the government
 
Teaboy said:
Sadly I think this is all a bit of side show. My feeling is that this government and very likely all future goverments will be commited to a mix of Nuclear and renewable.
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Well, the whole idea isn't that we re-convert to coal, but that coal can provide an interim solution while other technologies reach maturity and are brought on line.
My housemate is a proper flag waver for the Nuclear industry (which he works in) and spends an awful lot of time trying to convince me that Nuclear is the way forward as in it's current form (in this country) it is very very safe. The major problem we have at the moment is waste disposal, but he argues the waste is far far less than gas, coal and oil.
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The physical volume of waste is far less. Unfortunately some of it (nuclear waste) is more dangerous by an order of magnitude than coal tailings and crude slurries.
He is also very keen on this new technology which is fusion instead of fission which we have at the moment. He believes fusion will eliminate the waste problem entirely.
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Tell him to read up on the laws of thermodynamics. :)
However we are probably still 30 odd years away from a working reactor.
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A working commercial reactor may be even further away.
So in the meantime build some new reactors with current technology which can be upgraded at a later stage, which is pretty much what the gov are doing now it seems.
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Problem with that is that the lead time (the time it takes to source land, to get the right permissions, to build and to commission a nuke power station, is 7-10 years, and in the meantime...
I'm yet to be convinced by this argument but if a lowly worker can put a decent arguement together I imagine the professional lobbyists at Westminster are putting a very convincing argument to the government
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So convincing that the private sector company that was going to purchase the govt's stake in our nuclear generation facilities pulled out. :)
 
ViolentPanda said:
Tell him to read up on the laws of thermodynamics. :)

.

So convincing that the private sector company that was going to purchase the govt's stake in our nuclear generation facilities pulled out. :)
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He is a Nuclear Physicist to be fair and works in a section of the industry which is right at the cutting edge, so he probably has a fair handle on thermodynamics.

That being said, I personally agree with everything you've said.
 
Divisive Cotton said:
Well they are reopening the tin mines in Cornwall.
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Closing and reopening tin mines is a regular occurence - it all depends on the price of tin and developments in mining technology. Some mines in Cornwall have been closed and reopened half a dozen times at least.

Re-opening coal mines is a whole different kettle of fish. Flooding is the least of the problems. Gas and heave present greater problems.
 
"clean" coal doesn't exist and will never exist because burning coal however you do it produces huge amounts of CO2.

If people are arguing about what is possible now then why not reduce our electricity consumption by a 1/3 with insulation, energy effiecient appliances...etc.

Apparently, 1Km square of solar panels in the sahara produces the same electricity as 1.5 million barrels of oil a year. covering the just 1% of the earths deserts with next generation of solar panels can provide enough power for all of our energy needs in the world.

Doesn't that sound better than coal? So why the fetishism on coal? Maybe because the NUM wanna rebuild their small union (3,000 people).
 
cameronES_228x491.jpg
 
Raw SslaC said:
"clean" coal doesn't exist and will never exist because burning coal however you do it produces huge amounts of CO2.
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As does any current energy production method, if not in the processing cycle, then in manufacture of the generation infrastructure.
"Clean coal" is, of course, a misnomer, "cleaner coal" would be more accurate.
If people are arguing about what is possible now then why not reduce our electricity consumption by a 1/3 with insulation, energy effiecient appliances...etc.
Click to expand...
That, unfortunately, s one of those ongoing things, where you have to reach a certain "critical mass" of conversion for it to make a difference.
Apparently, 1Km square of solar panels in the sahara produces the same electricity as 1.5 million barrels of oil a year. covering the just 1% of the earths deserts with next generation of solar panels can provide enough power for all of our energy needs in the world.
Click to expand...
How many barrels of oil are required to produce 1km2 of solar panels? To produce the storage cells to allow a smooth delivery of the energy from the cells? What's the cost of those cells and panels compared to the cost of the oil consumption they would replace?
Doesn't that sound better than coal? So why the fetishism on coal? Maybe because the NUM wanna rebuild their small union (3,000 people).
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Because for the UK coal is "local", so you avoid transportation costs that oil etc incur, you have a secure supply of energy that isn't prey to international political shifts, and that doesn't have the short life (given uranium stocks) of nuclear generation.

No-one is saying "coal and only coal", but Scargill makes a good point about the security and availability of coal over other options.
 
Now how did that happen? well at times some self praise is in order well done to us, and no we did miss a thing, we waited, then we simply lifted a good report from indymedia aside from the spooks and the like it can contain good news and accounts of the class struggle as ian bone would say fucking stroll on (shit i can here him) meanwhile we have all the conflict albums as mp3,s e mail us for a download link.. More on this http://projectsheffield.wordpress.com/ and as we speak i have been e mailing and talking to the man himself, to do a joint artical with someone from The Camp itself, good to see the debate has began shall we continue then?

Indeed fucking stroll on..
 
Raw SslaC said:
"clean" coal doesn't exist and will never exist because burning coal however you do it produces huge amounts of CO2.

If people are arguing about what is possible now then why not reduce our electricity consumption by a 1/3 with insulation, energy effiecient appliances...etc.

Apparently, 1Km square of solar panels in the sahara produces the same electricity as 1.5 million barrels of oil a year. covering the just 1% of the earths deserts with next generation of solar panels can provide enough power for all of our energy needs in the world.

Doesn't that sound better than coal? So why the fetishism on coal? Maybe because the NUM wanna rebuild their small union (3,000 people).
Click to expand...

no i don't think that is right .. ok nuclear is far more dangerous and ( explosion, waste and mining ) and apparerently still has massive carbon inputs to start off with .. so we are discounting that right?

so and we ALL agree on significant reduction in carbon use can be made with common sense .. 1/3? maybe more ..

BUT surely WE also agree on stopping mid eastern oil and russian etc gas asap ( we have how many wars and deaths each day due to this?? ) .. so we NEED to fill a gap BEFORE we can bring on line all the solar and wind and wave ( which btw will also mean MASSIVE resource environmemtal destruction from mining including massive carbon input in fabrication) ..

so it seems common sense to use what we have under us here and now .. not imported columbain/polish coal not open cast but deep mined .. and NOT in conventional stations but as CHP .. and with the aim it would be phased out over time ..
 
ViolentPanda said:
As does any current energy production method, if not in the processing cycle, then in manufacture of the generation infrastructure.
"Clean coal" is, of course, a misnomer, "cleaner coal" would be more accurate.

That, unfortunately, s one of those ongoing things, where you have to reach a certain "critical mass" of conversion for it to make a difference.

How many barrels of oil are required to produce 1km2 of solar panels? To produce the storage cells to allow a smooth delivery of the energy from the cells? What's the cost of those cells and panels compared to the cost of the oil consumption they would replace?

Because for the UK coal is "local", so you avoid transportation costs that oil etc incur, you have a secure supply of energy that isn't prey to international political shifts, and that doesn't have the short life (given uranium stocks) of nuclear generation.

No-one is saying "coal and only coal", but Scargill makes a good point about the security and availability of coal over other options.
Click to expand...
yes well put ..
 
Fucking stroll on, so the Middle Class had more than one insight into working class life.. here is this once proud nation of people who had class pride, now the counter claims from those involved in the action named Climate Camp (http://indymedia.org.uk/en/ ) are in full fucking flow oh I know I keep plugging Ian Bone but do read what he said on this (http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2008/0...camp-who-leads-in-the-suppression-of-protest/), as King Arthur spoke at the camp, we can only hope that their contact with the working class taught them one thing about our life under their occupation and as crass said: your parents are your first oppressors, now we ask the children to go kill them, and yourselves, if you can not join us in making yourselves history then we are more than willing to lend a helping hand..

Our next move in keeping the Debate on Climate open, is more email and conversations, public meetings anyone? We can not promise the world, but we will aim to keep open this very debate and see where it can lead, I have no problem in working with my enemy, and the enemies of my earth, our mother.

Sometimes a compromise can lead us to good things, there has been joint actions over coal, a group of people gathered at a community centre in Barnsley, and when the dreadlocked hippies arrived to come and smash up dole hill open cast site on earth day October 31s t 1997, we were only going to play football (honest) but as it happened our walk with Anne Scargill (wife of arthur) and other former and current active members of the NUM lead to some serious action, the place was totalled in the space of a couple of hours, then when over we gathered and marched off, and there it should have been, but sometimes we all get a little too excited at times and the office occupation was crass, here is to Noel (now dead) who we hope the yoghurt was good and it was in hindsight good to be arrested for its theft .

Following over 36 hours in a police cell, court cases where the Middle Class refused the unity we had seen at Dole Hill, lessons were learned.

Now a thought for next years action, think of your location, think of your words and the hype (over 400 people from across england) came to dole hill, from just one flyer, word of mouth and a rented mobile (bill still owing) and we ensured the place was closed.
I have a good idea, Sheffield anyone, now lets take the power and make this land as ours, lets remember No M41 and claremount road, fuck the fluffy vs spikey debate, lets get militant and show the police and other enemies of our class we can organise, remembering 2009 will be 25 years on from The Great Strike of 1984, any one for another Orgreave, lessons from The Hit Squads of then into now, now fucking stroll on…
 
In Class unity and Class Pride

Now I find myself as sceptic on Climate Change, it could be the class struggle anarchist that I have been well before the miners strike (25 years on) and today in 2008.

I have no doubt the sons and daughters of the Middle Class who stood with us on the picket lines, watched the same over policing they suffered are the people saying coal has no future.

I know who I care to believe, not that myself and Mr Scargill have seen eye to eye, we have had our debates our conversations, but I do respect him, far more than I do a self-imposed spokesperson. George Monbiot has not been elected, and since when has the movement of individualism elected any leader, is this what they are against, why you spend hours in mass consensus and pointless debate.

It was not an act of a brave old man who come to Climate Camp, it was person of principal, for his class roots, and that of his class who attended last weeks Climate Camp.

Mr Scargill lives and works in the real world, one where he has seen his own class become nothing more than 2nd class people, now do we need to ponder or even pander to the far right, of course not, but the working class of 25 years ago and to the working class of now, they need to be organised.

This was the real message from last week, the Climate Protesters need to stop being the storm troopers of government propaganda, then complaining when the nasty state act as they do.

The likes of Monbiot, and his privileged education, are the people not living or even participating in any real world, and just perhaps when he has friends under the banner of the land is ours, need to get active and militant, as we witnessed October 31st 1997 when hippies, and current and former members of the NUM smashed up an open cast site at Dole Hill, Derbyshire.

It is only actions of this kind, and an organised class that will defeat the true enemy of class, and instead of patronising and condescending the working class, perhaps by working with us, to Make The Middle Class History we will see some serious social change, until then some of us are realist and understand the ugly side of life under capitalism, and however much we desire change it has to be an organised mass action such as Dole Hill in 1997, and the strike of 1984. 25 years on, we have the Middle Class bleating on about how we are the problem, how life does not change for any better.
 
Former NUM Yorkshire Area Executive member's Climate Camp Report

Dave Douglass former NUM Yorkshire Area Executive member writes this report of his visit to the so called Climate Camp.

'Arthur is now 70 and I am 60, I think we present a figure of two rather battered and scarred alley cats come for a peace conference with the league of dogs. This is a sad and confusing conjuncture of forces. I have never in my life experienced a situation where the miners and what we do is the unpopular foe except among the ruling class and Tories.

Outside of the Young Conservatives, I have never known young people regard mining and pit heads as their enemy. What is worse is that these are my traditional constituency on the Anarchist left, they have the aura of the hippies, they aspire to the freedoms and love of life, which our 60s/70s generation did. I come across the Newcastle and Scottish camp, and know many of the activists from the Toon scene and demonstrations. Previously we have always held each other in a silent mutual respect, now there is a mutual distance, coolness, a sort of mutual Et tu Brutus. However, I see here also the mortified conviction of my own anti-nuclear youth. The conviction that myself and the world were on the brink of extinction. The certainty that if we delay we are all doomed to a wretched and painful end. Now it is climate change, and the gathering speed with which the earth is crashing toward climatical obliteration ironically for all carbon based creatures and vegetation on the earth as we know it. A change, which will cleanse us all from the surface of the globe for eternity.

more

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/08/407011.html




A superb piece by Dave Douglas, anarchist, 68er, (he was at the US embassy demo), (ex NUM) whether you agree with him or not> TBh, there are some amazing people in the CC lot, but there are also 'third worlders' who are happy to see the UK finished and are certainly not left wing in the traditional sense.
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This is an anti-Durham gala, everywhere are Workshops on mining, on resistance around the world to mining of all descriptions, pictures of headgear and open cast, industry and miners, and the campaigns against them. It is like a Durham miner’s gala on bad acid. Instead of everywhere a celebration of the miners, our work, our communities, are protests for its end. I am shocked that many left groups are now Groupies to the eco movement and have abandoned all attempts at class analysis.
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a powerful snippet,
 
will read this with interest .. though not sure HOW a class analysis could NOT be a green analysis in the grand scheme .. the are mutually inclusive ..
 
... i then read the comments ( of which 5 are excellent ) and will leave my reply for now as all the replies are excellent and refute what DD is saying absolutely .. he is creating a false division afaics .. so if you read the article READ the replies! :)
 
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