Scargill/Sheridan/Galloway et al - The Party's Over.

[cockneyrebel]

You're judging it by "the lefts" standards though. Membership figures etc.

I can't imagine any standards, left or otherwise, that would qualify the IWCA as either a success or inspirational. They've basically got pretty much nowhere after years of trying. On top of that there is absolutely nothing new about the IWCAs ideas or method, it's been tried time and time again.

 

[JHE]

I can't imagine any standards, left or otherwise, that would qualify the IWCA as either a success or inspirational.

You "can't imagine any standards"...? OK, sink lower. Use your imagination. It's easy. Think of Workers' Powder and PermaRevvvv. Compared to them, the IWCA is a rip-roaring success, isn't it?

 

[durruti02]

I agree with Donna Ferentes' post that in the Western World there is no environment for hard socialist politics at present.
I'm going to depart entirely from theoretical terms and say, did any of you watch that BBC programme 'Coal House'? It's pretty easy to visually compare the living standards of that day to living standards nowadays, and see why people feel more content now.
Now given the original post talks clearly about Partyism and building party politics, I think the only way in these conditions that left-wing politics can get on the agenda is through a party vehicle. In Wales the nationalist party (a mainstream political party but different to the others in that it is not funded by big business and is independent from any party HQ in London) is now influenced to a considerable extent by socialists and social democrats in it's ranks.
That is why (admittedly not hard) socialist policies are still on the agenda in Wales and why our section of the NHS isn't dominated by the private sector, for example.
There is a tiny far-left in existence in Wales but they have no say in meaningful politics and no support amongst the workers.
This information is not really helpful for our friends in England except to say, building obscure far-left organisations is a waste of time in these current economic conditions (although if there is a global recession that might change), if you want socialist policies on the agenda there is still a reformist route you can take, but Respect clearly did not fit that mould.

good that there is no market for hard state socialist politics .. there is STILL a massive desire for change .. and indeed it is this infatuation with a bankrupt ancient model of state socialism that is a major stumblimg block

 

[Lock&Light]

What lesson can we draw from this?

That any party, wishing to have any effect on the future of the country, has to be neither left or right, but near the center. It's the lesson Tony Blair learnt from the 1983 "longest suicide note in history".

 

[durruti02]

I can't imagine any standards, left or otherwise, that would qualify the IWCA as either a success or inspirational. They've basically got pretty much nowhere after years of trying. On top of that there is absolutely nothing new about the IWCAs ideas or method, it's been tried time and time again.

where and when has the IWCA model been tried?? .. i have studied ( informally) politics for many many years, read pretty well everything there is to read of theory and history .. and yet i have NEVER ever come across their model .. what did i miss?!

as for getting nowhere .. no other left group currently has a group like their Oxford group .. but yes they have failed to spread .. sadly this reflects more i think that they are seen as 'politicians ' like all the rest than what they do themselves

actually i suspect they have far less than 100 members .. and that just goes to show what you can do IF you have pro w/c politics .. and been going 10 years .. well that is a few decades less than all the rest of the left!

p.s. respect called 6.5% in harlow a brilliant result .. yet IWCA/HI consistently pull over 30% votes .. if you do not find that inspirational then i do not know what

p.s. i actually think the harlow result IS good by the way .. for respect

 

[cockneyrebel]

You "can't imagine any standards"...? OK, sink lower. Use your imagination. It's easy. Think of Workers' Powder and PermaRevvvv. Compared to them, the IWCA is a rip-roaring success, isn't it?

But where did I say either WP, PR or any of the other varieties of the left are a rip-roaring success? All my point is that it's easy to lay into the far left, but how can people then claim the IWCA is some wonderful alternative when after years no real section of the working class have taken up their way of operating. And why hasn't the IWCA spread beyond 100 members and three branches? You can't just ignore those things.

That isn't to say that I think everything the IWCA is wrong on everything, I agree with dennisr that some of their local community work is inspiring. I also agree that the left needs to get stuck into practical everyday struggles to have any relevance. Reading stuff about anything from the Save the NHS/Save Council Housing campaigns, to local campaigns by the old CPGB to stuff done by the Black Panthers reaffirms that for me.

But it just seems ridiculous that the IWCA are being held up as some great model when they have achieved sweet FA.

 

[cockneyrebel]

where and when has the IWCA model been tried?? .. i have studied ( informally) politics for many many years, read pretty well everything there is to read of theory and history .. and yet i have NEVER ever come across their model .. what did i miss?

What you don't think that previous groups have tried community campaigning. What about Militant? Or the old CPGB? Or the ILP? There are loads and loads of examples.

 

[cockneyrebel]

as for getting nowhere .. no other left group currently has a group like their Oxford group

The SP in Coventry would probably disagree.

 

[durruti02]

But where did I say either WP, PR or any of the other varieties of the left are a rip-roaring success? All my point is that it's easy to lay into the far left, but how can people then claim the IWCA is some wonderful alternative when after years no real section of the working class have taken up their way of operating. And why hasn't the IWCA spread beyond 100 members and three branches? You can't just ignore those things.

That isn't to say that I think everything the IWCA is wrong on everything, I agree with dennisr that some of their local community work is inspiring. I also agree that the left needs to get stuck into practical everyday struggles to have any relevance. Reading stuff about anything from the Save the NHS/Save Council Housing campaigns, to local campaigns by the old CPGB to stuff done by the Black Panthers reaffirms that for me.

But it just seems ridiculous that the IWCA are being held up as some great model when they have achieved sweet FA.

fair enough .. but what else can you come up with? imagine if tomorrow ALL those who count themselves as left took up this sort of politics .. it would dramatically chnag ethe face of politics in this country

 

[durruti02]

The SP in Coventry would probably disagree.

they appear to have differrent trajectories! sorry dennis!

 

[durruti02]

What you don't think that previous groups have tried community campaigning. What about Militant? Or the old CPGB? Or the ILP? There are loads and loads of examples.

no that is so so so not right/true mate

.. you are really missing the differrence between a tactic and a fundamental principle /policy ...

all the groups you mention were STATE socialist groups .. none were as down to earth or fundamentally pro w/c as the IWCA .. they used commnity work tactically as does e.g. Hama to build the party /sell the brand / create a movemnet to get them into power etc etc

.. this is fundamentally differrent from IWCA which rejects leftism/leninism and does community work to try to create community/ w/c power .. in the here and now as building blocks for the future .. building workers power from the base

your post makes me feel you do not really understand or possibly know what the IWCA is doing

 

[cockneyrebel]

fair enough .. but what else can you come up with? imagine if tomorrow ALL those who count themselves as left took up this sort of politics .. it would dramatically chnag ethe face of politics in this country

I don't think it would as it goes. I think too much debate about working class politics is seen through the prism of the far left. Ironically this seems even more so by people who say the far left are an irrelevance. The far left is in its weakest state for over 100 years and has no real strength.

Also I think the IWCA model has many problems in anything from largely ignoring trade union work, to largely ignoring international/national issues such as the STWC to having a very poor stance on housing and immigration.

The far left needs to take on community work seriously, but doesn't need the IWCA model to do that.

 

[cockneyrebel]

your post makes me feel you do not really understand or possibly know what the IWCA is doing

I'm not saying they were all the same, I'm saying the model of doing local community work isn't in any way new. Why organisations are doing it, is, as you say, a different question.

I just don't see what the IWCA are doing as anything new. And I don't see them going anywhere fast. The fact is that people on here who are fed up with the far left can criticise them until the cows come home, but they also have to explain why the IWCA has remained so pitifully small and if it's such a good model why has that model not spread in any meaningful way?

Ironically enough LLETSA often makes both anarchists and revolutionary socialists stumble when they come to explaining the failure of their ideologies, but I'd say the same applies to the IWCA model.

It's all very good saying that working class struggle goes on and doesn't depend on the left. But it also needs to be explained why working class radicalism is at a real low, unions are in their worst state for over 100 years, past radical models have failed and why the ruling class is currently enjoying unprecedented luxury while people at the bottom get fucked over. Just saying "working class struggle doesn't depend on the left and goes on every day" and "look at a model that a couple of dozen people in Oxford have used over the last 10 years" doesn't really cut the mustard.

I also think that LLETSA has posed some tough questions to revolutionary socialists and anarchists alike about how decentralised models have always failed in the past and that centralised state models (with all their faults) are the only examples that have survived for any length of time. While I don't agree with LLETSA the answers are often either evasive, very poor or non-existant.

 

[treelover]

Actually, while the IWCA may be a very small organisation, its ideas are being taken seriously and inspiring many many more people, even if some of them (their ideas)are somewhat flawed.

But where did I say either WP, PR or any of the other varieties of the left are a rip-roaring success? All my point is that it's easy to lay into the far left, but how can people then claim the IWCA is some wonderful alternative when after years no real section of the working class have taken up their way of operating. And why hasn't the IWCA spread beyond 100 members and three branches? You can't just ignore those things.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Actually, while the IWCA may be a very small organisation, its ideas are being taken seriously and inspiring many many more people,

Sorry but I think you're deluding yourself.

 

[ska invita]

surely the Left in Europe is in a far better state. (correct me if I'm wrong) but take the Left Bloc in Portugal fro example...a contrast to Britain, no?

Can you tell us more about the Left Bloc in Portugal - why don't they in-fight like a bunch of schoolchildren? Does one faction dominate?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Can you tell us more about the Left Bloc in Portugal - why don't they in-fight like a bunch of schoolchildren? Does one faction dominate?

You will find the answer to this in the article I linked to:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6663270&postcount=31

The Left Bloc in Portugal, [with the equivalent (compared to Britain) of 25,000 members, 1,000 councillors, and 24 MPs] is a genuine multitendency party which encourages full internal debate, including the right to form platforms, put forward alternative positions, and have proportionality on leadership bodies.

Politically the influence of the Portuguese section of the Fourth International (ISG's co-thinkers) is strong but it does not dominate organisationally the way the SWP dominated Respect. Other currents are given space to put forward their ideas and bring forward counter-proposals.

In what now seems a remarkably prescient piece, Alan Thornett of the ISG presented the model of the Left Bloc as an alternative to the SWP's in an article following the Respect Conference 2005 (contrary to Nigel's claim that the 'ISG attacks the SWP from the right'):

RESPECT: A Balance Sheet Of The Last Year

Alan Thornett
...

"Membership is not seen as so important in a loose coalition as it is in a party. The SWP treat Respect mainly as a platform for electoral interventions and SWP members can be called upon to provide the troops in an election campaign.

Nor is it just membership which is seen as less important for a coalition. It reflected in the downgrading of Respect’s independent public profile, in opposition to it having its own independent publication and its own internal political life.

It is reflected in Respect’s failure to develop leadership structures which are properly independent of the component organisations, particularly the SWP, its dominant component.

We still have a situation where the SWP bases itself around Socialist Worker in building the SWP, but opposes Respect having its own paper in order to build itself.

And it cannot be accepted that the occasional once-off broadsheets which are produced in the Respect office are any real substitute for a political newspaper reflecting the views of Respect on an ongoing basis.

Respect does not have a long-term future with this model for its development. None of the successful broad parties in other parts of Europe have organised in this way.

The Red Green Alliance in Denmark organises as a party and takes recruitment and membership development seriously. It has twice the membership of Respect (in a much smaller population) and has a newspaper and an internal discussion bulletin.

The Left Block in Portugal – much admired by some SWP leaders – organises in a similar ways. It functions as a party and appears in public as a party.

http://www.socialistresistance.net/respect1006.htm

The Red-Green Alliance in Denmark has 4,000 members - in a country 10 times smaller than Britain, so that's equivalent to 40,000 members in Britain. It is also a model for the ISG and Socialist Resitance's conception of what a broad left party should look like:
http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1270

 

[cockneyrebel]

But where is this model leading? What is its long term future?

 

[mk12]

I can't imagine any standards, left or otherwise, that would qualify the IWCA as either a success or inspirational.

They've basically got pretty much nowhere after years of trying.

You're doing it again.

they have achieved sweet FA.

Really?!

 

[dennisr]

You also make the classic Trot error of confusing teh Soviets with workers control.

I think you may be making the classic ex-swappie error of not reading what is said - I did not argue there was workers control, in any meaningful sense, in Russia.

i'm a sicilian - never trust a sicilian

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Seems to me like factionalism is just part of the lefts DNA. I cant figure it, and we dont have time to with the issues we face.

If only we had a progressive party founded on principles that put people and planet first without getting too bogged down in dogma and obsessive pedantic factionalism. We could call it The "Green Party" or something. Oh...hang on...

 

[lewislewis]

Which works to a point with Plaid, and to a greater extent with the Greens. But could you have acheived these things organising on yer own with your neighbours and workmates?

No way, I need to work as part of a team.

 

[cockneyrebel]

You're doing it again.

Doing what again? I've already said that some of the community work they've done is good, but by achieving sweet FA I mean on the wider scale of things. Yes they've done some good stuff in Oxford but they remain a tiny organisation whose method hasn't spread much beyond their own membership. As an inspirational alternative to the far left it doesn't provide much inspiration.

That's the problem (as said on the other thread) with many of those who lay in to the far left, they usually have very little to say about practical ways of building an alternative. And is the IWCA, after 10 years, all you can come up with? You can also repeat the same stuff about working class struggle going on with or without the left. Which is of course true, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore the fact that i) working class radicalism is at a very low level and ii) the method that the IWCA is using has been tried many times and failed many times.

 

[JimPage]

It always ends up in a load of infighting - the Left can't seem to work together without one lot wanting to take control.

A core question,Why not? Is there something abour progressive politics which means that lefties cant work together, in the way that say people of a broadly, say green, conservative or fascist persuasion. There is only one Green party to speak of. The BNP rules the roost for probably 95% of fascists. The tories are a broad movement as well.

I dont accept that the left is doomed to be split forever- but i am buggered if i know what the answer is to bash together the heads of the left leadership together to understand that if they cant fill the political vacuum left by Labour- others like the BNP will.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I dont accept that the left is doomed to be split forever- but i am buggered if i know what the answer is to bash together the heads of the left leadership together to understand that if they cant fill the political vacuum left by Labour- others like the BNP will.

Couldn't agree more with you there. Especially the bolded bit.

 

[JimPage]

I

In terms of the IWCA it makes me laugh that they're trying to suggest that they are in any way something new. They may claim they're seperate from the rest of the left but in reality their ideas have been tried and tested time and again and they are also going nowhere fast, as with the rest of the left.
.

can you give me an example where IWCA tactics have been tried, and failed before? tome , what they are trying is a first