Saturday's demo against Israeli Lebanon attacks [pics]
- Thread starter editor
- Start date
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
So in the absence of one, ultra-rightwing religious fundamentalists will do instead?sulayk said:
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
hizbollah have become more than simple right-wing fundie nutters; they are militant campaigners for social justice, rights of lebanon's poor etc.
and they are just about the only force to really cause Israel problems.
They are flawed, but needed
and they are just about the only force to really cause Israel problems.
They are flawed, but needed
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
What form of "social justice" would that be? Forcing women into the veil? Persecuting adulterers and homosexuals? Persecuting trade unionists? Enforcing rigid, rightwing patriarchal "values"?Red Jezza said:
Whatever it's merits in resiting Israel's invasion, it's politics remain as foul, obnoxious and unprogressive as ever. It is possible to be for the Lebanese people, yet against the reactionary politics of Hizb, Hamas, etc.
If the military wing of Hezbollah abolished itself then that would leave Lebanon controlled by its democratically elected government. It is true that Hezbollah had about 30% of the MPs elected to parliament but this doesn't give them the right to grab whole areas of the country or kick off a war with a neighbouring state.belboid said:
If Israel abolished itself as a political entity this would still leave the population of the country where they are, and something else would then replace it. Maybe this would be a 'one state' or a 'two state' arrangement and it could take all sorts of forms.
I have a clear idea of what I would like to see in Lebanon when Hezbollah disband their military wing. What exactly is your idea of Israel/Palestine if Israel were 'abolished' as you put it?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
you dont know anything about them do you? Just a couple of generalisations from the press. Thus the above crap.poster342002 said:
Women are actually less likely to be veiled in Hez area's than in the north of Lebanon. And Hez actually includes a lot of TU'ists.
Which isnt to say they are great, wonderful, working-class heroes, but it is to say that you dont know what you're talking about.
Not quite as ignorant as Teejay tho (but who is?) and his daft notion that Hiz 'kicked off' the war, as if Israel hadnt been crossing Lebanese borders and kidnapping people ever since they 'withdrew', and as if they hadnt reneged on their agreements to free dozens of Lebanese prisoners. And the even dafter notion that Hiz should abolish itself because a neighbouring country doesnt like them!
A UN security council resolution saying so and the fact that they only won 35% of seats in parliament and have no legal or moral right to control whatever chunks of Lebanon they feel like, just because they have the gunmen to do so.belboid said:
Do you support the concept of armed Islamist gunmen siezing areas at will and in violation of a democratically elected government? What kind of neo-fascist values do you subscribe to to come to this conclusion?
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
see others'comments on hezbollah. The truth is that due to the lebanese civil war, the state of healthcare, civic & social services in south lebanon has been virtually non-existent for a long time; except where hezbollah have stepped into the breach and provided precisely those services. you may not like this, but it's trueposter342002 said:
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
has anyone poisted the pape article yet, showing where most Hizbollah suicide bombers came from? The one that pointed out only 1/5th were 'Islamic Fundamentalists' and that more were from a communist/socialist background?
& TJ, hiz didn't 'seize' Southern Lebanon, they live there, and considering how the Lebanese government & army were so useless at defending their country from Israel in the past, then no one in the South wants them to disband. And as for UN resolutions - fuck em. At the very least fuck em until Israel actually follows them too.
& TJ, hiz didn't 'seize' Southern Lebanon, they live there, and considering how the Lebanese government & army were so useless at defending their country from Israel in the past, then no one in the South wants them to disband. And as for UN resolutions - fuck em. At the very least fuck em until Israel actually follows them too.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
then you take it wrongly sir!
"Evidence of the broad nature of Hezbollah’s resistance to Israeli occupation can be seen in the identity of its suicide attackers. Hezbollah conducted a broad campaign of suicide bombings against American, French and Israeli targets from 1982 to 1986. Altogether, these attacks — which included the infamous bombing of the Marine barracks in 1983 — involved 41 suicide terrorists.
In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/opinion/03pape.html
oh, and dont forget - Hez in Iran are a different organisation to Hez in Lebanon.
"Evidence of the broad nature of Hezbollah’s resistance to Israeli occupation can be seen in the identity of its suicide attackers. Hezbollah conducted a broad campaign of suicide bombings against American, French and Israeli targets from 1982 to 1986. Altogether, these attacks — which included the infamous bombing of the Marine barracks in 1983 — involved 41 suicide terrorists.
In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/03/opinion/03pape.html
oh, and dont forget - Hez in Iran are a different organisation to Hez in Lebanon.
Assumed you didn't because you didn't post itbelboid said:
Cheers for that, looks interesting, will read now
I was under the impression that they were different wings of an international organisation (albeit not in the secret underground training centre, James-Bond-esque way you might get the impression of from the news).
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
and thus you fell into my trap! <madcacklinglaughter>
there are obviously similarities and links, but they arent the same. Lebanese Hez was more of a catch all name for several groups coming together under one umbrella rather than being a single group with a single doctrine - tho they obviously have been becoming more unified over the last couple of decades
there are obviously similarities and links, but they arent the same. Lebanese Hez was more of a catch all name for several groups coming together under one umbrella rather than being a single group with a single doctrine - tho they obviously have been becoming more unified over the last couple of decades
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
How the hell can the notion of suicide bombing (with rewards of virgins in heaven) be sold to communists? 
Ignoring the bit about "rewards of virgins in heaven", it isn't necessarily impossible. It's not like these people would be the first communists ever to die for their cause, would it?poster342002 said:Hwo the hell can the notion of suicide bombing (with rewards of virgins in heaven) be sold to communists?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
possibly because they saw it as the only way to inflict any damage in Israel. I wouldn't have thought the notion of the availability of virgins would have made any difference to them.poster342002 said:How the hell can the notion of suicide bombing (with rewards of virgins in heaven) be sold to communists?
So if I get a gun I have every right to take over my neighbourhood, even if I only win 35% of the seats in the recent election?belboid said:
Neo-fascists very ofetn use the line "the government is too weak - you need a strong force to protect you" as an excuse for ignoring the results of democratic elections and for ignoring the law of the land. They simply pick up guns and get together their gangs and take over. Provoking an invasion just increases their excuse for ignoring democractic elections.
I fail to understand why you support a neo-fascist, Islamist and anti-democratic organisation that has just dragged Lebanon into a war for their own petty and selfish reasons.
