Saturday's demo against Israeli Lebanon attacks [pics]

[KeyboardJockey]

Agreed - KBJ's post really is far-fetched that organisers should 'have a word' with that lone person who decided to doctor a banner - OMG!!

But it would be sensible to have some form of statement ready to deny any association between Respect and Hezbollah wouldn't it?

It's going to damage Respect but worse of all it's going to play very well with the extreme right.

 

[mauvais]

No disrespect KBJ but you weren't actually there yesterday and people expressing those sentiments must have been in the extreme minority - I didn't see any material/banners or anything that denied the Holocaust.

It's like you're scraping the barrel to slag off the demonstration/hype up what isn't there, and I'm not sure why

This seems to be pretty common at the moment - not that KeyboardJockey has particularly stood out for it - and I don't understand why either.

 

[X-77]

But it would be sensible to have some form of statement ready to deny any association between Respect and Hezbollah wouldn't it?

It's going to damage Respect but worse of all it's going to play very well with the extreme right.

why? because ONE person held that banner? They should put out a statement?? Are you being for real?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

why? because ONE person held that banner? They should put out a statement?? Are you being for real?

How do we know tht it was just the sentiments of one person? We have already heard on here about someone allegedly from a green group handing out 'stop dictatorship support a caliphate'.

OK they were according to a poster on here educated by someone about just how negative for people the idea of the caliphate would be (I'm against any form of theocracy btw) and stopped handing out the leaflets but I get the impression that the pro Hezbollah sentiments and anti Israel attiude was in the majority as several posters on here have mentioned a) a holocaust denier b) a swappie saying that the jews don't belong in Palestine c) Hezbollah flags etc etc.

I'm just concerned as to the direction that Respect and the STWC are going.

I've got 11 fucking bnp scum as councillors in my area unless groups like Respect stop playing the religious / sectarian card I'm worried that there will be many more not just in my area but in others. The antics of Respect are feeding these people.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

This seems to be pretty common at the moment - not that KeyboardJockey has particularly stood out for it - and I don't understand why either.

Probably because there are those of us who worry what would be the ultimate outcome of religious / racial / sectarian / communitarian parties like Respect and the BNP gaining ground.

I want to see a secular progressive country not one where there is poltical division based on racial and religious lines.

I want to see the different religions and races that make up thsi country pulling together not sniping at each other across the ballot box.

I'd rather see poltical parties arguing about how the country should be run than political parties based on religion fighting for supremacy.

I've no wish to see the politics of the Irish Troubles imported onto the mainland but Respect / BNP are going this way.

 

[mauvais]

All of which is fair enough, and something I can agree with, but don't attack whole groups, ideas or movements. Don't attack the anti-war demos just because some unpleasant elements were involved. Don't discredit the efforts of those who turned out for more altruistic reasons.

I'm not suggesting that you personally are, as I've seen little evidence of it, but plenty of people - especially on here - seem to be. They seem to be avoiding demonstrations and criticising entire events, which is depressingly self-destructive. It feels commonplace for the left to be split over People's Front of Judea-style differences, and I suppose this is to be expected in this case, but this time in doing so they miss a massive opportunity to unite. If there's dangerous elements involved, do something about it, but not to the detriment of the bigger picture. To my mind this is the biggest problem we currently have to face.

 

[Groucho]

How do we know tht it was just the sentiments of one person? We have already heard on here about someone allegedly from a green group handing out 'stop dictatorship support a caliphate'.

OK they were according to a poster on here educated by someone about just how negative for people the idea of the caliphate would be (I'm against any form of theocracy btw) and stopped handing out the leaflets.....

Wasn't it someone wearing a Green t-shirt (so not necessarily a Green) wearing a sticker with that slogan who took it off when challenged. A bit different to handing out leaflets.

Your continued comparison of the Respect with the BNP is offensive. You swallow and then spout New Labour and BNP propoganda that Respect is ethnically divisive. It's bollocks!

 

[X-77]

How do we know tht it was just the sentiments of one person? We have already heard on here about someone allegedly from a green group handing out 'stop dictatorship support a caliphate'.

well if you'd stop exaggerating what actually went on (AK47s on Respect banners/green members giving out 'support a caliphate' stickers, both of which are not true) maybe you wouldn't be scaring yourself so much. You conveniently ignore comments from people like myself who said that the atmosphere was NOT as you are making it out to be, and yet jump on (and wildly distort) comments from posters who paint a picture of something more sinister taking place.

and a lot of people were wearing it without a thought - including a guy in a Green party t-shirt giving out flyers for the climate camp.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Your continued comparison of the Respect with the BNP is offensive. You swallow and then spout New Labour and BNP propoganda that Respect is ethnically divisive. It's bollocks!

Come down to my area and listen to the comments 'well the p***s have got their party (meaning Respect) why can't we have our party?' and you will see the damage to inter community relations that Respect is doing. I won't vote for the BNP and neither will I vote for Respect for similar reasons.

It's not new labour propaganda it is a fact that Respect is ethnically divisive. I've asked time and time again on here if Respect is a diverse socialist alternative then why aren't they standing in areas like Dagenham?

FFS we stand on the edge of a political abyss here I don't want to see politics based on race and religion but if Respect carry on the way they are then this is what we are going to get.

I'm shit scared we are going to end up with some simulcrum of the politics of Ulster but with Respect as the Muslim Party and the BNP as the respositary of white working class votes. If this happens we will end up with no way of a) shifting Blair or similar shits as long as middle england is happy and b) the prospect of street violence between supporters of each religious political faction.

Both Respect and BNP ARE garnering votes on the grounds of race and rreligion and it is worrying.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

well if you'd stop exaggerating what actually went on (AK47s on Respect banners/green members giving out 'support a caliphate' stickers, both of which are not true) maybe you wouldn't be scaring yourself so much. You conveniently ignore comments from people like myself who said that the atmosphere was NOT as you are making it out to be, and yet jump on (and wildly distort) comments from posters who paint a picture of something more sinister taking place.

Fair comment but I think the direction that the Swaps / Respect / StWC are heading in is worrying

 

[In Bloom]

Both Respect and BNP ARE garnering votes on the grounds of race and rreligion and it is worrying.

Racist!

Seriously though, good post KJ. Not that the Swappies are likely to take much of it in.

 

[grogwilton]

It's not new labour propaganda it is a fact that Respect is ethnically divisive. I've asked time and time again on here if Respect is a diverse socialist alternative then why aren't they standing in areas like Dagenham?

QUOTE]

they want to be soon. martin smith said at the closing rally of marxism that that is what respect are looking to next.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's not new labour propaganda it is a fact that Respect is ethnically divisive. I've asked time and time again on here if Respect is a diverse socialist alternative then why aren't they standing in areas like Dagenham?

QUOTE]

they want to be soon. martin smith said at the closing rally of marxism that that is what respect are looking to next.

If they want to stand in Dagenham they will have to get in there and spend the next year or so pressing flesh and genuinely helpling people (getting peoples broken windows fixed, dealing with piles of dog shit etc etc etc) which is what the bnp were doing to build support in the year before the local elections.

I hope that Respect do change but they will have to undo the damage that they have done to themselves first.

 

[belboid]

I find this a lot more spot on to a lot of bolloney I've been reading lately.

blimey! I'm an 'otherwise relatively sane leftist'

 

[Pigeon]

very refreshing article.

Particularly the suggestion that the SWP should produce some placards reading "we are all Sh'ite".

 

[In Bloom]

blimey! I'm an 'otherwise relatively sane leftist'

Had you not seen that before?

 

[belboid]

nope, managed to miss it somehow.

I may sue

 

[treelover]

Imo, the demo on Saturday showed that middle eastern politics of the worst kind has arrived in the uk: what with the Hezbollah banners, the anti-semitic shit, etc. Go to any main city in egypt, jordan, etc and you will find the most disgusting holocaust denial and antisemitic tracts available.The left is so degraded in this country and as KJ says it seems to be sleepwalkng into a sectarian crisis, instead of offering a united class based left response to the young, both muslim and white.

 

[JHE]

...middle eastern politics of the worst kind has arrived in the uk: what with the Hezbollah banners, the anti-semitic shit, etc.

The Social Workers and their ilk fuckin' love it. Plenty of Israel-hating 'anti-imperialist' militancy! Phoar! If they can just latch on to it tightly enough, they'll be well on their way to socialist revolution.

It'll work. Honest.

 

[TeeJay]

I find this a lot more spot on to a lot of bolloney I've been reading lately.

I like this... (despite not being a 'class war anarchist')

 

[In Bloom]

nope, managed to miss it somehow.

I may sue

Consult the legal team

 

[belboid]

Imo, the demo on Saturday showed that middle eastern politics of the worst kind has arrived in the uk: what with the Hezbollah banners, the anti-semitic shit, etc. Go to any main city in egypt, jordan, etc and you will find the most disgusting holocaust denial and antisemitic tracts available.The left is so degraded in this country and as KJ says it seems to be sleepwalkng into a sectarian crisis, instead of offering a united class based left response to the young, both muslim and white.

you think those are the worst things about middle-eastern politics?

thus speak the (comparatively) comfortable white man.

 

[X-77]

Imo, the demo on Saturday showed that middle eastern politics of the worst kind has arrived in the uk: what with the Hezbollah banners, the anti-semitic shit, etc. Go to any main city in egypt, jordan, etc and you will find the most disgusting holocaust denial and antisemitic tracts available.The left is so degraded in this country and as KJ says it seems to be sleepwalkng into a sectarian crisis, instead of offering a united class based left response to the young, both muslim and white.

Again, I saw NO evidence of 'anti-semitism' and I think people here are hyping this up in order to scare-monger. The march on Saturday consisted of thousands and thousands of people of all colours, all faiths and none - pretty much a standard anti-war march. Yes some Muslims were chanting pro-Hezbollah statements, but to say that is 'anti-semitic' (rather than a reaction to what is currently going on) is ridiculous.

And JHE, I wonder why there was plenty of 'Israel-hating' sentiment? Is it that baffling to you? There was also plenty of US and UK hating sentiment and if you were there you would have seen that for yourself. In fact there were far more anti-Bush and anti-Blair chants going on than anti-Olmert ones by a long shot.

And if there are certain elements on demonstrations that people here don't agree with, what do you suggest - banning them from attending future demonstrations?

 

[sulayk]

It's so easy to slag off Hezbollah isn't it? Sure it is hierarchical, religious and discriminatory. It would be great to have a non-hierarchical, non gender discriminatory, secular organisation that is fighting the Americans / Isrealis. Sadly, there isn't one. (if anyone on this list wants to grab an AK47 and head out there to create one, I'll support them 100%).
The reality is that if Hezbollah and Hamas are the organisations that are effectively fighting back. Without them, America wins out-and-out control over the middle ease. The consequences of that are terrifying, particularly for those that live there - an Israeli state writ large. I know that there is a need always to oppose hierarchy. But pragmatically, there may sometimes be a need to oppose one lot of hierarchies before you can start to oppose the next.
Neutrality, and a theoretical purist position may be all very well for the armchair viewer in Britain. But it doesn't look like such a good option for those facing the tyranny of an enlarged Israeli state.

 

[TeeJay]

And if there are certain elements on demonstrations that people here don't agree with, what do you suggest - banning them from attending future demonstrations?

What is your policy if neo-nazis turn up?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What is your policy if neo-nazis turn up?

Lets wait and see shall we.

 

[TeeJay]

...The reality is that if Hezbollah and Hamas are the organisations that are effectively fighting back. Without them, America wins out-and-out control over the middle ease...

They are creating more violence and suffering - both directly and in the Israeli reaction to them. Without them the middle east would be far better off.

All this "fighting oppression" shite: I bet the neo-nazis in eastern europe said the same thing about "fighting the communist oppression". It is the perpetual excuse of people who in fact just want to dominate and dictate themselves - that they are 'liberating the people'. Utter shit.

 

[belboid]

Without them the middle east would be far better off.

without Israel the whole Middle-East would be better off, so why dont they abolish themselves?

 

[X-77]

What is your policy if neo-nazis turn up?

I can't quite see neo-nazis giving a flying fuck about people in Lebanon, can you? Incidentally, I didn't see anyone on Saturday that I would compare to neo-nazis - were you there TeeJay?

 

[TAE]

Don't know about the brits, but german neo-Nazis love all the holocaust denying stuff that countries like Iran come out with. And there have been anti-american demos because of the US's support of Israel.