mauvais
on reddit or something
Photos from Saturday in a thread here - danger! wooo! FAQ bustin' image sizes.
Saturday's demo against Israeli Lebanon attacks [pics]
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I had that feeling as well, as did some other comrades I bumped into on the march. While these things always attract dodgy folks (e.g. pro-Saddamites on Iraq demos) I've always felt them to be in enough of a minority to be ignored. Saturday I felt like I'd wandered into a Hizb-ut-Tahrir rally with a few (easily manipulated) lefties and liberals along for company. Both in terms of the actual atmosphere, and the way the demo can be perceived by the public, this type of demonstration is NOT one in which I feel comfortable.Matt S said:
Seeing Greenies wandering round with "ESTABLISH WORLD PEACE - ESTABLISH THE CALIPHATE" and Trots chanting "Hezbollah! Hezbollah! We are all Hezbollah!" next to blokes handing out Hamas literature...
Fuck
mauvais
on reddit or something
I saw a load of them with 'Stop Global Warring', if that helps? 
As for the other specifics, I did see various bits of literature, probably Hamas, but I don't know what. Don't forget what Hamas are.
In general I disagree entirely with what you've said. For a demonstration about someone else's (yes, I know) war, it received a very diverse turnout. By this I mean not purely the vocal Muslim groups or trots, but a fairly broad selection of people.
Look through the photos. They represent a reasonable picture of the march, including Hezbollah propaganda and daft boards like 'Iran needs nukes', but it's a gross insult to everyone who bothered to turn up, myself included, to label them as you have.
As for the other specifics, I did see various bits of literature, probably Hamas, but I don't know what. Don't forget what Hamas are.
In general I disagree entirely with what you've said. For a demonstration about someone else's (yes, I know) war, it received a very diverse turnout. By this I mean not purely the vocal Muslim groups or trots, but a fairly broad selection of people.
Look through the photos. They represent a reasonable picture of the march, including Hezbollah propaganda and daft boards like 'Iran needs nukes', but it's a gross insult to everyone who bothered to turn up, myself included, to label them as you have.
None taken, and apologies, should have explained further.In Bloom said:
Hizb-ut-Tahrir had been giving out stickers all afternoon (saw a lot of them on people and on lampposts) - circular orange things with a message and their website address on the bottom. a lot of people had taken them and worn them as normal, which for some of the more inoffensive ones I can understand ("ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON", "CEASEFIRE NOW", etc.). One of them however was along the lines of the quoted (the more memorable bit being "RE-ESTABLISH THE CALIPHATE"), and a lot of people were wearing it without a thought - including a guy in a Green party t-shirt giving out flyers for the climate camp. (Talked him out of it tho
)There were several very visible blocs of Hezbollah supporters and (usually, tho not always, nearby) people wearing Hamas headbands. There were also several people handing out Hamas magazines and leaflets, and - as noted elsewhere on this forum - groups giving out holocaust-denial material. Also noticed at least one of the Shia flags (black with Arabic writing).mauvais said:
You're right, of course, and this is largely a (possibly disproportionate) response on my part to the groups who showed up yesterday. The turnout was good, it contained a lot of people who may not have gone otherwise, and given the fairly rapid timescale for the mobilisation it was extremely encouraging. The "actions" at the US embassy and Downing Street, while meaningless in themselves, showed an unwillingness to go along with the StWC stewards' way of doing things, which in itself was encouraging.
So yes, I have been over the top.
Nonetheless...the increasingly visible and vocal presence of Islamists and terrorist sympathisers in these demonstrations is a problem which must be addressed. for much of the march I felt under threat - and not from the cops.
mauvais
on reddit or something
I don't think anyone could have really felt under threat - as an overall event, it was extremely peaceful, well organised and polite.
What you've just said is more measured, which I appreciate. Otherwise the left infighting does get me down. It's one thing to have a government that ignores the majority public opinion and to have a left incapable of organising any kind of opposition.
It's quite another to have a left - like some people on here, and not necessarily you - that attacks any efforts people do put in. I reckon I'm essentially your average bloke; not politically affiliated, not interested one bit in hardcore party politics, but upset by this government's lack of regard on the significant issues. There are plenty more like me, I expect more than the active left, all with varying thresholds as to what point they'll turn out and demonstrate. I've just found mine. To pour water on that over some petty difference in policy, or here over some minority elements, is to kill off a huge amount of potential support. It's depressing - this stuff seems futile enough without the apathy/criticism from people supposed to be in favour.
What you've just said is more measured, which I appreciate. Otherwise the left infighting does get me down. It's one thing to have a government that ignores the majority public opinion and to have a left incapable of organising any kind of opposition.
It's quite another to have a left - like some people on here, and not necessarily you - that attacks any efforts people do put in. I reckon I'm essentially your average bloke; not politically affiliated, not interested one bit in hardcore party politics, but upset by this government's lack of regard on the significant issues. There are plenty more like me, I expect more than the active left, all with varying thresholds as to what point they'll turn out and demonstrate. I've just found mine. To pour water on that over some petty difference in policy, or here over some minority elements, is to kill off a huge amount of potential support. It's depressing - this stuff seems futile enough without the apathy/criticism from people supposed to be in favour.
Jesus tittyfucking ChristJonnyT said:None taken, and apologies, should have explained further.
Hizb-ut-Tahrir had been giving out stickers all afternoon (saw a lot of them on people and on lampposts) - circular orange things with a message and their website address on the bottom. a lot of people had taken them and worn them as normal, which for some of the more inoffensive ones I can understand ("ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON", "CEASEFIRE NOW", etc.). One of them however was along the lines of the quoted (the more memorable bit being "RE-ESTABLISH THE CALIPHATE"), and a lot of people were wearing it without a thought - including a guy in a Green party t-shirt giving out flyers for the climate camp. (Talked him out of it tho
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Although I disagree with Israeli action in the Lebanon I cannot bring myself to march alongside those who believe that there should be Palestine 'from the Jordan to the Sea' as I believe that because of deep seated historical reasons Israel has a right to exist and has a right to exist where it is. However, I would like to see justice in the Holy Lands which is fair to Jews Christians and Muslims.
I think that the odious swappies have not only bitten off more than they can chew by aligning themselves with Hizbollah (although I understand that the Israeli actions have unwittingly brought Hizbollah multi faith support in Lebanon which will strengthen them) but have deepened the suspicion that swappies and their Respect front organisation are held in the population at large.
All demos attract fringe nutters for example the occasional Stalinist romantic but as another poster has said they are normally in the absolute minority. What appears to be happening with these latest STWC demos is that the nasty intlolerant fringe of british political islamism is becoming more and more prevelant.
Don't forget how the swappies association with extreme political islam is playing in areas like Dagenham and how that associationis being exploited by groups who want to divide rather than bring together.
Rather than allow the islamist nutters free reign why didn't STWC run a campaign for a just settlement which would allow Israel to feel secure and the Palestinians to take their proper place in the poltics of the region.
Is this an indication of how far up the arse of islamism the swappies have climbed. If this is true they can kiss goodbye to picking up non islamic working class support in elections and in extra parliamentary activity thats if they were at all interested in the non islamic vote and judging by their previous activities they are not.
I think that the odious swappies have not only bitten off more than they can chew by aligning themselves with Hizbollah (although I understand that the Israeli actions have unwittingly brought Hizbollah multi faith support in Lebanon which will strengthen them) but have deepened the suspicion that swappies and their Respect front organisation are held in the population at large.
All demos attract fringe nutters for example the occasional Stalinist romantic but as another poster has said they are normally in the absolute minority. What appears to be happening with these latest STWC demos is that the nasty intlolerant fringe of british political islamism is becoming more and more prevelant.
Don't forget how the swappies association with extreme political islam is playing in areas like Dagenham and how that associationis being exploited by groups who want to divide rather than bring together.
Rather than allow the islamist nutters free reign why didn't STWC run a campaign for a just settlement which would allow Israel to feel secure and the Palestinians to take their proper place in the poltics of the region.
Is this an indication of how far up the arse of islamism the swappies have climbed. If this is true they can kiss goodbye to picking up non islamic working class support in elections and in extra parliamentary activity thats if they were at all interested in the non islamic vote and judging by their previous activities they are not.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Blagsta said:
As one of the people who would be a target for violence if HIT et al ever got even the sniff of any power over here I personally do find them threatening.
You might not feel physically threatened by them when you're on a big march, but regardless, they are very intimidating, especially if you happen to be queer or a woman or Jewish. It's tatamount to sneering at somebody who was upset about, say, the BNP showing up.Blagsta said:
To be honest, I can't understand why you're being so dismissive of that.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Fairynuff, some people might find them intimidating. However, that was not an intimidating demo, I really don't see how anyone could find a few random nutters on that demo in any way intimidating. If they were on a uni campus being nutty outside a gay night at the SU or something, then yes, they could be intimidating. Not at that demo though.
Were you there?
Were you there?
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Blagsta said:
I wasn't there as I refuse to align myself with anything that the swappies or their front group Respect are involved in (see previous posts from me as to why I have a problem with the SWP / Respect) as I can't in all concsience support what they are up to. But reading the reports of this demo and seeing the pictures of Respect banners with AK47's on them is leading me to believe that the amount of political islamists who are attached to the swappie organised demosand the barely hidden and sometimes open anti semitism voiced at said demos and the presence of those who would want to kill me for being who I am such as HUT makes me feel not welcome.
I don't get the impression that the random nutters are in the absolute minority any more at swappie demos.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
I certainly didn't feel like that and I was there. I do think that people carrying placards saying "we are all Hizbollah" to be a bit dumb and naive. Its not in any way intimidating though - not on a demo where there is a massive police presence and people from all walks of life.
What is more silly is the usual teenage anarkids chucking placard sticks at the police from a few rows back and not having the guts to do it at the front so that others take the brunt of their pathetic posturing. (tbf though, that is 2nd hand from a mate - but he's not known for making things up).
What is more silly is the usual teenage anarkids chucking placard sticks at the police from a few rows back and not having the guts to do it at the front so that others take the brunt of their pathetic posturing. (tbf though, that is 2nd hand from a mate - but he's not known for making things up).
yes it's true, I saw a placard flying through the air amidst a scuffle outside Downing Street... all the scuffles that took place were between police and non-Muslims - nothing threatening took place involving Muslims that I saw. And when Mark Serwotka said it was great to see all faiths, ethnicities and 'gay and straight' people marching side by side, the crowd cheered enthusiastically... I think people are playing up the 'scary' Muslim elements on the march yesterday.Blagsta said:
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
intresting sentament, coaching of terrorists let you down though, and reveals your candour, otherwise good troll...JonnyT said:
X-77 said:where's the AK47 on the Respect banner?
No AK47s printed on any RESPECT banner or placard. However, I believe I have seen a photo of a person carrying a RESPECT placard upon which they have attached a Hezbollah flag...and it is that to which the poster obviously refers. One incident, not one that troubles me, but one person once.
btw listening to Galloway on Talksport - the music signature tune is the theme from Top Cat
lostexpectation
New Member
JonnyT said:None taken, and apologies, should have explained further.
Hizb-ut-Tahrir had been giving out stickers all afternoon (saw a lot of them on people and on lampposts) - circular orange things with a message and their website address on the bottom. a lot of people had taken them and worn them as normal, which for some of the more inoffensive ones I can understand ("ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON", "CEASEFIRE NOW", etc.). One of them however was along the lines of the quoted (the more memorable bit being "RE-ESTABLISH THE CALIPHATE"), and a lot of people were wearing it without a thought - including a guy in a Green party t-shirt giving out flyers for the climate camp. (Talked him out of it tho
well see there you go how difficult was it talk him out of it... not very I suspect... maybe he didn't know what the word caliphate meant...
I love to see what lebanese etc have to say rather then tony benn
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Groucho said:No AK47s printed on any RESPECT banner or placard. However, I believe I have seen a photo of a person carrying a RESPECT placard upon which they have attached a Hezbollah flag...and it is that to which the poster obviously refers. One incident, not one that troubles me, but one person once.
btw listening to Galloway on Talksport - the music signature tune is the theme from Top Cat
Thats the one I saw. I know that it is not an official Respect placard but it is an indication of the sort of company that SWP / (insert front group here). This coupled with what another poster has said about Holocaust deniers threatening to cut someones throat and a swappie saying that 'the Jews arn't from Palestine' etc etc is making me uneasy about the direction that the STWC are heading.
I'd have thought that if the organisers were being in any way media savvy they would have a) had a word with the person who amended the Respect banner or if it wasn't possible then at least have some press statement ready to distance Respect from the marcher who amended the Respect banner.
This is the sort of thing that will be used by the pro war press to discredit the movement in similar way that the loud 'bombs not jobs' crusties in the 80's anti nuclear demos were used to discredit CND.
I know that this is not an official Respect banner but it is something that can be spun in ways that could be extremely damaging.
KBJ - Oh come on! You failed to mention it was not an official RESPECT banner. In fact you talked in the plural to suggest it was common place.
Demo organisers cannot police every fuckin placard that every demonstrator carries. Would you want a regimented demonstration where each individual was vetted? As it happens I would not have been worried by this instance anyway.
Holocaust denial stuff is something else and won't be tolerated. If it happened it was not in any way represntative. Don't try to pretend otherwise.
Demo organisers cannot police every fuckin placard that every demonstrator carries. Would you want a regimented demonstration where each individual was vetted?
As it happens I would not have been worried by this instance anyway. Holocaust denial stuff is something else and won't be tolerated. If it happened it was not in any way represntative. Don't try to pretend otherwise.
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
Groucho said:
Fair comment there. I should have made what I saw in the picture more plain.
Groucho said:Demo organisers cannot police every fuckin placard that every demonstrator carries. Would you want a regimented demonstration where each individual was vetted?
No but I would think that Respect should consider how their images can be used. It may not have been possible to change the banner but I would have thought that as this was going to be a contenious demo then some form of advance denials of association between Respect and Hezbollah should have been done. I'm afraid that this is going to play into the hands of those who want to and are able to discredit the antiwar movement.
Groucho said:
The problem is that holocaust denial is something that is quite OK with some of the islamist groupuscules that Respect gives houseroom to.
FFS we need an effective left wing credible alternative to Blair and the extreme right but I'm concerned that the actions of Respect / SWP / STWC are playing into their hands.
I DO have an extreme distaste for Respect as I can see what is likely to go wrong.
Agreed - KBJ's post really is far-fetched that organisers should 'have a word' with that lone person who decided to doctor a banner - OMG!!Groucho said:KBJ - Oh come on! You failed to mention it was not an official RESPECT banner. In fact you talked in the plural to suggest it was common place.
Demo organisers cannot police every fuckin placard that every demonstrator carries. Would you want a regimented demonstration where each individual was vetted?
Holocaust denial stuff is something else and won't be tolerated. If it happened it was not in any way represntative. Don't try to pretend otherwise.
No disrespect KBJ but you weren't actually there yesterday and people expressing those sentiments must have been in the extreme minority - I didn't see any material/banners or anything that denied the Holocaust.KeyboardJockey said:
It's like you're scraping the barrel to slag off the demonstration/hype up what isn't there, and I'm not sure why
