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[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

Sea Star

have you ever explored your dark side?
And I would support and fight for safe spaces for trans-women.
I don't want your support. I'm a woman and I will not be segregated or treated as "other".


ETA - this represents a roll back of rights. At the moment many trans people are able to go stealth after changing birth certificate and are able to live as their experienced gender with no serious issues. To force trans people - men, women and non-binary people presumably, not just women, into trans only facilities would out them as trans forever and require that we all be documented as trans and carry some sort of identifying documentation - or maybe a bar-code(?).

It would also mean that your feelings are being placed above those who feel that trans women are women and want us to be seen that way, and given the same rights and protections.

I don't think that transitioning would even work as a treatment if we were forced to identify as a third gender or a second class version of our experienced gender. It would be a recipe for abuse, for discrimination and i suspect make life so much harder that the benefits of transitioning would be extremely marginal, maybe non-existent.

Plus, for practical reasons - providing all those extra facilities would be expensive. If there were rape crisis centres for trans women then the facilities for women with wombs (presumably cis women without wombs would be excluded too) would suffer.

And most of us don;t live in safe spaces - we live in the real world of work and having to negotiate landlords, employers, health providers and small minded offcialdom. We already get a huge amount of discrimination, but the thing that keeps me going is that one day i won't have to identify myself as trans any more to anyone and i'll finally get to live as a woman. Enforced segregation - if it was to be enforced - would mean that we never get to that. Life, to be honest, would become intolerable.

Actually this is so insulting that I can't even deal with it. It's outrageous that someone would think that separate and not equal would work as a policy. I suspect you have no intention of supporting such an unworkable policy but just want trans women away from you. And for what reason? What risk do we pose to cis women? I consistently see a failure to provide evidence that widespread discrimination at huge cost to the state, to charities and other NGO's, to employers, to local authorities, would provide clear benefits to anyone at all. Would only result in the death of trans people, in my opinion.

I'm not stopping short of equality.
 
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Fozzie Bear

Well-Known Member
Yeah that’s annoying. Hold on. It’s a twitter thread so difficult.

If you click on the Past Tense tweet below it should take you to the thread.

ETA: I wasn’t there, but there is a twitter thread from a trusted comrade who was.
 
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Rutita1

Council Estate Socialist
There is currently a trans-woman prisoner in a female prison, and she sadly has been segregated from the other prisoners, which must be terribly isolating. If there were units in prisons for trans-women, their safety could be better guaranteed.
So we need to build 'Units' so that trans women feel safer? What about them feeling isolated, you imply you care about that. How will these trans units you think need building stop people feeling isolated?
 

smokedout

criminal
I think that trans-women activists need to campaign for safe spaces for trans-women.
The rate of transsexuality is usually estimated at around between one in a thousand to about one in 300, thats both male to female and female to male. Given that hopefully most of these people will never want to use a service such as a refuge then apart from in very big cities this is not a viable option. This view, even if well intentioned, amounts to saying that transwomen should just do something impossible and then they could have their own safe spaces. And that's before you even get into the argument that if transwomen are to be accepted as women, then they should be able to access services for women (which in reality they can already in many cases and there's been no outbreak of trans rapists in womens refuges that I'm aware of since a lot of organisations adopted a full inclusion policies).
 

YouSir

Look out Laika, it's Earth.
Did I really just read that I just that Helen Steel was called a fascist, accused of filming someone and passing it on to police, as well as being treated like that? Disgusting accusations to make against her.
Ongoing too, people still arguing it on Twitter.
 

shygirl

Well-Known Member
Yeh. If you're going to hand out fuck you's please aim them at the right person. As for prisons you preceded that with a bit about access to safe spaces. You explicitly said you were talking about safe spaces *including prisons in your list*. See your post 114. And sort out the quote in it,you missed out a ]
I said 'fuck your snobbery' not 'you'.

You're right, prisons are not safe spaces, per se, but they arguably become less safe if/when they have to be shared with people who were born as men and still possibly pose a risk to women. Bear in mind that most trans women do not transition physically. The prisoner who is currently segregated in a female prison committed rape. She is not segregated because of anything she's done whilst in prison, and I don't know the reason for her segregation. Perhaps the prisoners protested about someone who had raped two girls, who transitioned whilst in prison, being placed in a female prison.
 

Pickman's model

every man and every woman is a star
I said 'fuck your snobbery' not 'you'.

You're right, prisons are not safe spaces, per se, but they arguably become less safe if/when they have to be shared with people who were born as men and still possibly pose a risk to women. Bear in mind that most trans women do not transition physically. The prisoner who is currently segregated in a female prison committed rape. She is not segregated because of anything she's done whilst in prison, and I don't know the reason for her segregation. Perhaps the prisoners protested about someone who had raped two girls, who transitioned whilst in prison, being placed in a female prison.
I've said nothing about your use of urban dictionary so fuck you, chuck.
 

shygirl

Well-Known Member
I don't want your support. I'm a woman and I will not be segregated or treated as "other".


ETA - this represents a roll back of rights. At the moment many trans people are able to go stealth after changing birth certificate and are able to live as their experienced gender with no serious issues. To force trans people - men, women and non-binary people presumably, not just women, into trans only facilities would out them as trans forever and require that we all be documented as trans and carry some sort of identifying documentation - or maybe a bar-code(?).

It would also mean that your feelings are being placed above those who feel that trans women are women and want us to be seen that way, and given the same rights and protections.

I don't think that transitioning would even work as a treatment if we were forced to identify as a third gender or a second class version of our experienced gender. It would be a recipe for abuse, for discrimination and i suspect make life so much harder that the benefits of transitioning would be extremely marginal, maybe non-existent.

Plus, for practical reasons - providing all those extra facilities would be expensive. If there were rape crisis centres for trans women then the facilities for women with wombs (presumably cis women without wombs would be excluded too) would suffer.

And most of us don;t live in safe spaces - we live in the real world of work and having to negotiate landlords, employers, health providers and small minded offcialdom. We already get a huge amount of discrimination, but the thing that keeps me going is that one day i won't have to identify myself as trans any more to anyone and i'll finally get to live as a woman. Enforced segregation - if it was to be enforced - would mean that we never get to that. Life, to be honest, would become intolerable.

Actually this is so insulting that I can't even deal with it. It's outrageous that someone would think that separate and not equal would work as a policy. I suspect you have no intention of supporting such an unworkable policy but just want trans women away from you. And for what reason? What risk do we pose to cis women? I consistently see a failure to provide evidence that widespread discrimination at huge cost to the state, to charities and other NGO's, to employers, to local authorities, would provide clear benefits to anyone at all. Would only result in the death of trans people, in my opinion.

I'm not stopping short of equality.
I have no problem with trans-women. I just happen not to agree that trans-women are women in the sense that women who are born female are. Equality laws and sex-monitoring were established to address issues of sex-based discrimination, inequality and lack of opportunity and the GRA threatens to obscure this.

Anyway, what is a woman? I'm intrigued to know what it 'feels' like to be a woman (other than as a gender stereo-type). I liked playing with boys and wearing boys' clothes when I was little, and playing dolls with my girlfriends, but that doesn't mean that I knew what it was to be a boy any more than I did about being a girl. I learnt how to 'be' a girl because society had it all worked out and applied rigidly.
 

shygirl

Well-Known Member
Oh the irony of the trans-activists today calling Helen Steel and the other women fascists, whilst imposing their own nasty fascism on others. What a joke.
 

YouSir

Look out Laika, it's Earth.
Oh the irony of the trans-activists today calling Helen Steel and the other women fascists, whilst imposing their own nasty fascism on others. What a joke.
'Fascist TERF cunt' was one I just saw. I'm well aware of my own ignorance on the issue but some of the abuse that seems to be going on is just obscene.
 
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