[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

Discussion in 'protest, direct action and demos' started by Kate Sharpley, May 30, 2017.

London Anarchist Bookfair
Start Date: Sat 28th Oct 2017 10:00 AM
End Date: Sat 28th Oct 2017 07:00 PM
Time Zone: Europe/London +01:00 BST

Location:
Park View School
West Green Road,
London N15 3QR

Posted By: Kate Sharpley

Confirmed Attendees: 0
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  1. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Again, you are making an argument that transphobes should be accommodated because you sympathize to some shifting extent with their bigotry. I’m pointing out that they don’t have to be accommodated. That’s a political choice you want to make, not a necessity.

    It also isn’t a political choice most others on the radical left will want to make, which is why transphobes are slowly but surely being pushed out of all left wing movements. You can whine about it all you like and sympathize with bigots all you like, but in a few years time people like you will be denying that you ever thought there should be a place for TERFery on the left.
     
    Sea Star likes this.
  2. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    When leading anti-trans figures are calling trans people "parasites," deliberately misgendering them as a means of attempted delegitimisation and then very conspicuously not being called out on that by their "reasonable" wing though it's not really a case of "oh people are just questioning," it's a case of some people framing their bigotry as "questioning" and then claiming victimhood when people don't take that seriously and tell them off.

    Anti-trans activists hit out at ‘parasitic’ trans people at event in Parliament

    The problem is that for trans people these "reasonable questions" have been asked over and over again and answers get ignored - for example the unsafe bathrooms line, where the Act is cast as a "fair question" situation about what happens when abusive men are legally enabled to pretend to be women to get access to the women's bogs. Except that's covered by the 2010 Equalities Act and there's never been a formal law on who's allowed in what room. I'm not even sure how you'd enforce it, stall cops?

    The "fair question" line is more often than not an excuse to repeat things designed to unsettle people who haven't been following the arguments, rather than an honest perspective. And while it may or may not fall into the same category as racist activism in terms of virulence, it's damn close to some of their "look at these misleading statistics" strategies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
    Sea Star, nyxx and smokedout like this.
  3. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Yes, of course political agitation aimed at denying trans people the right to be treated as their preferred gender is transphobic.
     
  4. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    So you can't conceive of a single situation where it might be legitimate to advocate for that significant difference to have a social consequence? And that to do so can only ever be transphobic? If so, I disagree. But, even then, it'd be more honest to frame the debate as being about the boundaries of transphobia, rather than as being pro/anti accommodating transphobia.
     
  5. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    What if that's not the aim, but a consequence of a otherwise legitimate aim?
     
  6. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Don’t be obtuse. It’s always the aim.
     
    Sea Star likes this.
  7. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    I can only speak for myself on this, but I'd say the majority of my posts on the mega thread that got closed were hostile to people using shitty language, deliberately mis-gendering people and the rest. I spent quite a while arguing against Miranda Y on that thread and have, fwiw, been 'positioned' far closer to a trans rights position. I'm just fucked off how the whole thing has become disingenuous and so, in many ways, I'm also agreeing with you about this as a wider debate. Real issues, massively important issues, but too much of the battle has been fought with the tools of identity politics and call outs, no platforming demands. Specifically as an anarcho debate - this thread at least - issues around class politics and solidarity would be a good starting point, even if that in itself doesn't 'solve' the specific issues. But wailing transphobes at everyone who disagrees with you is shit (not aimed at you of course).
     
    redsquirrel, HoratioCuthbert and tim like this.
  8. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    Aha! I sympathise 'to some shifting extent' with bigots! In the neat slide rule you carry round with you that must be pushing me even closer to the 'as bad as a racist' marker! Oh my, what a fool I've been. :(
     
    tim and Pickman's model like this.
  9. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Yes you are a fool.
     
  10. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    You didn't use the word transphobe in that post. :(
     
    MadeInBedlam and Pickman's model like this.
  11. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    It's definitely difficult, particularly if navigating as a man through territory which is really not ours to define while also wanting to avoid abandoning solidarity to those who need it. But it's as important to try and understand why people are adamant about shutting down elements of the discussion which they feel are rooted in bigotry rather than honest debate as it is to try and keep an open mind. And it's important to bear in mind the human element - this isn't only about political positions, it's about personal histories, friendships, family, seeing people you care about suffer and having intense reactions to that. People getting angry is inevitable, and there's not much point in demanding they stop being so.
     
  12. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    I disagree. Undoubtedly, there are bigots whose sole intention is to mistreat trans people, but, there are also a number of people who broadly accept trans inclusion except in exceptional cases where they believe it should be deprioritised in favour of competing goods e.g. women's rights to organise behind a conception of gender as a social construct (target than a matter of individual choice) - traditionally a mainstay of feminist organising. You might feel they're wrongheaded (and in many cases I'd agree with you), but it's not necessarily accurate to say they're motivated by bigotry (and, arguably, counter-productive).
     
  13. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    A singular omission
     
    Wilf likes this.
  14. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    Yes, he was running at 100% on this thread till the last 2 sloppy posts. Nigel - I've had a word with the scorers and they say that if you say it 3 times in your next post they'll restore your enviable score. Wouldn't want to be like Don Bradman, missing out on a 100 average by taking your eye of the ball would you?
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  15. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    Seeking to organise women on the basis that trans women should be excluded isn’t incidentally transphobic, it’s deliberately setting out to deny trans women the right to be treated as trans women. The vast majority of feminists have no problem including trans women. When bizarre minority splinters of the feminist movement set out to organise without trans women, that exclusion is a central point of what they are doing not a side effect of some other aim.
     
    Sea Star likes this.
  16. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    I don't think people who are themselves in bizarre minority splinters should be casting aspersions
     
    Wilf likes this.
  17. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    :thumbs:
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  18. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    (((((Nigel's shattered greenhouse)))))
     
    Pickman's model likes this.
  19. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    What there can never be a legitimate basis to organise according to biology? Not childbirth, reproductive rights, fgm, etc., etc.. And, as a man, you're entirely comfortable telling women that?
     
    tim likes this.
  20. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    None of those issues require the exclusion of trans people. All of those issues directly effect non binary people and either trans men or trans women. All of those issues are organised around by feminist grouping in trans inclusive ways. The largest feminist movement in Western Europe at the moment is the abortion rights movement in Ireland. As you know, every single group involved in that movement, from the most staid semi-QUANGO to the most radical activist organisations are trans inclusive. And when they say that people who want to exclude trans people from those movements are bigoted scum, I’m more than willing to take them at their word.
     
    Sea Star and nyxx like this.
  21. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    It's not a question of whether trans exclusion is required; clearly, there's one way of doing it that is trans inclusive (and, as it happens, one I'm I'd favour women choosing to adopt) . It's a question of the extent to which it's proper for men like you to dictate to the women that's the only acceptable way of doing it.
     
    Wilf likes this.
  22. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    If that was really the question it would be fortunate that I’m only echoing the views of the overwhelming majority of the feminist movement. But it isn’t. I’m not in favour of trying to stop bigots from holding their bigoted meetings, but unlike a few people here who have adopted the TERF spin on ID pol, I haven’t fallen so far down the standpoint epistemology rabbit hole that I’ve started to believe that only a woman is capable of holding an opinion about whether another woman is a bigot.

    In any case, I’m not interested in restarting the other thread. My point here is only that the people on this thread treating this conflict as an insurmountable or intractable problem are wrongly assuming that a resolution must be to some degree acceptable to both sides. It doesn’t have to be acceptable to both sides. One side can be told to fuck off. In practice that’s what’s happening across the left and, whether the handwringers like it or not, that’s what’s likely to happen if the book fair returns. The view that transphobia is as unacceptable as racism is already hegemonic on the left, even in Britain, and it’s only going to get more so.

    Meanwhile the TERFs are only going to get more hostile to the left. I see that they held another meeting sponsored by David Davis last night, while the previously less rabid Mayday4women group are today retweeting people demanding the end of trans as a concept and calling individual trans women parasites. There isn’t going to be a compromise between this mini movement and either the left or the bulk of the feminist movement. There isn’t going to be reconciliation. The trajectories involved point in opposite directions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
    nyxx likes this.
  23. if radical liberalism can even be considered ‘left’ that is.
     
  24. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    In case you still don't get it, Nigel stars in the remake of What Women Want, with himself in the Mel Gibson role. :)
     
  25. Wilf

    Wilf Meeting few of his KPIs

    [​IMG]
     
  26. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    Nobody is suggesting that.


    Yes, and rightly so. But there's less consensus about whether or not it's necessarily transphobic to concede there may be some justification for treatiing trans women differently from other women in extreme cases. Or even whether or not women have a right to discuss that proposition.
     
    tim likes this.
  27. Nigel Irritable

    Nigel Irritable Five, Ten, Fifteen Years

    No, the view that TERFs “just asking questions” about “extreme cases” is just more transphobia is already dominant too. As you can see by the fact that such pretense attracts exactly the same hostility as more honest transphobia. Maybe you think that this shouldn’t be the case, but it is.
     
  28. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

    i am sure that if there is an expanded collective for the 2019 London Anarchist Bookfair that they will be very grateful for this discussion here and all the helpful pointers.
     
    MrSpikey and Wilf like this.
  29. Athos

    Athos Well-Known Member

    In my experience, this isn't universally true.
     
  30. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

    I reckon we can sort this one out, on here, between now and October 2019.

    Then the Bookfair can be like a victory rally. For us.
     

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